Why Not The Skyway? (Jacksonville, Springfield: mover, transfer, theater)

[Ocklawaha]

Good Question. To any non-transportation types, it's really easy to exchange Skyway - Monorail - People Mover - Tram - Train - Bus etc... But each really has a very specialized area where they are most effective.

There is a hidden "rule of thumb" (one I guess few at JTA have ever heard of) that says 30,000 PPHPD or it won't work. What that translates to is 30,000 passengers per hour, per direction, or you better off walking. So if we built out the Skyway to distant destinations, it would fail that mark by 27,000 PPH! As is it only has a peak capacity of about 3,000 per hour. This would mean it could be very effective in moving folks around downtown, or moving masses from parking around downtown into and out of the core City.

So far - So good... (and it gets better)

IF (a huge IF) JTA had any male parts, and moved forward on the Skyway, it is after all, a type of railroad. A single rail (MONO) railroad (RAIL). So even if the current cars wouldn't have the capacity, we could order entire trains that could increase our PPHPD by several times. With larger or longer more effective trains our system could for example empty the stadium within a couple of hours. Not everyone is going to travel by Monorail, so we'd be well within our capacity to reach that point.

Next problem with the Skyway...

It's a Monorail, this equals very tough switching systems that are expensive and hard to build or maintain (as opposed to standard railroad track). Our Skyway has plenty of them, but it's not exactly speedy... "The Skyway is making an unscheduled stop, it will resume the trip shortly..." (bet you've heard that before). Another drawback of Monorail is just a slight fraction of a different level in the support posts for the beams, will cause it to gallop like a bronco. Ever been up to 50 mph on an old concrete highway? Same effect. With regular rail we just come in with a tamping machine and a level, toss on some rock and tamp the bad joint to a perfect level. So Skyway is going to be a 30 or 40 MPH shuttle or the costs to maintain it will skyrocket.

When I fought round one of this battle and LOST, back in 1983, JTA was boasting it would be to the Beach and Airport by now. "Unlike Trolleys, it isn't REQUIRED to compete with automobile traffic..." Further, the Skyway would replace buses downtown, and a ring of suburban garage facilities, would make it simple to swing off almost any road into the core, and into a garage. From that point a Skyway train would never be more then 60 seconds away.

What they failed to figure in is we don't live in the air, not too many citizens want to climb flights of stairs to go 3 or 5 blocks. Yes we have elevators, (which smell of urine, and escalators which work SOMETIMES) They also (and to this day with only a couple of exceptions) have never said that Trolleys are RAIL VEHICLES and there is no reason why they are "required to compete with automobiles... ANYWHERE!" As rail vehicles they could in theory, run on the same track as Amtrak, CSX, NS or FEC. I said theory, because today "trolleys" would not meet the crash test (called Buff Strength) testing to run with the big trains. So law requires them to be divided form regular traffic by either time schedules or by physical space.

My ideal, is to see the Skyway finished ASAP, on each of several legs. Along with a laundry list of changes... My concepts for the CIty:

SKYWAY:

STADIUMS:
Complete the "Stadium Extension" running from Bay and Hogan, East to Randolph, hence North to the Arlington Expressway. Somewhere around the fairgrounds, would be the "Mother of all garages" one with it's very own access from the freeways from Arlington.

FCCJ:
From Rosa Parks transit Center extend the line North to the NORTH end of the FCCJ campus. Here establish a station with two side entries, one to the street the other to the school. On "off days" the school entry could be locked and the street - park - residential - church entry would be open.

UNION STATION:
From the current end of the Prime Osbourne line, curve South through the parking lot, making a complete "U-TURN" and bring it down to ground level at one of the platforms next to the (proposed) trains. This so across the platform transfers could be made with a 12' foot walk.

RIVERSIDE:
The plan for the Brooklyn Station is BEAUTIFUL, keep the track on the ground at this new station, which will be across from the Times-Union. Continue the track to Blue Cross / Fidelity / DuPont area, then turn West on Rosselle to come in behind PS-4. PS-4 (Annie Lytle School) would be converted to a true transit center, with mall, food court, theater, as well as STREETCAR - BUS - SKYWAY transfers. A grand walk would connect from the front door through the park to 5-Points. We would also have a number of Semi-Covered parking spaces under I-95 for park and ride.

SAN MARCO:
Extend the line OVER I-95, and have a stop at the new Hilton, hence South along the old railroad. Up and over the FEC tracks, to the West side. Simply follow the FEC Right-of-way down to Atlantic. About the site of the paint store would be converted into another mini-transit center. Future Commuter Rail - Bus - Skyway. All within an easy walk from San Marco downtown. Another station with ground level rail-Skyway-bus platforms.

EQUIPMENT:
Go with larger volume monorail cars, that would have the walk through ability of regular rail cars. They would either have to meet the standards of making the BAY and HOGAN corner, or the small cars would work that segment while the rest of the new fleet ran the broader sections.

With these changes, add in streetcars, limited BRT lines, true trolley buses and the day of the diesel bus in downtown would be OVER. As for ground level platforms, these would be limited to the platform area only, the Skyway would then climb (as it does on the Acosta Bridge) right back up hill into it's elevated position, OVER the streets. I personally want to be present when we shove the first of the Potato-Chip-Truck-Trolleys over the side of the ship to become artificial reefs...

Ocklawaha

[riveree]

Originally Posted by Ocklawaha

What they failed to figure in is we don't live in the air, not too many citizens want to climb flights of stairs to go 3 or 5 blocks. Yes we have elevators, (which smell of urine, and escalators which work SOMETIMES)

I don't know about that.

I'm picturing Long Island. Most Long Islanders are car dependent like us, but they use the LIRR and the stations are above ground. There are stairs and escalators (and I imagine elevators...I always used the stairs). The stations were easy to climb and open air (good for safety).

[Ocklawaha]

Riveree, your right about the New York area. It's pretty much the same in Medellin Colombia, or Seattle. My opinion is based on two systems running side by side, the ground transit will pull more IF it is fixed route, (Meaning: runs on tracks, or under a trolley wire, or third rail). So a true Trolley Bus (Dayton OH, Boston MA, Seattle, WA) running alongside or under the skyway, should out draw it.

I think part of the problem here is Every one of the other Cities I mentioned with better transit is cooler. I am a SOUTHRON, born and bred, but our culture has the image of being lazy. I don't think that is true, but I think the decades of learning to cope with 100 degree temps and 100% humidity on a clear day, have taught us as a society to count our steps, move slower, and seek the easy way out. This wouldn't be a problem in Medellin for example where it is ALWAYS 70-74 degrees without fail.

I HAVE heard at least 50 people talk to me about the Skyway and lament that it is not on the ground... somehow. Somehow would be LIGHT RAIL.

Oh, my little Nun (the one I married) lived in Woodside, Queens.

Ocklawaha

[Ocklawaha]

Anyone else have an opinion on the Skyway? Would you want it rescued? Operated? Expanded? Dismantled? Rebuilt somewhere useful like along side the Panama Canal or maybe in a circle about the Zoo or Jacksonville Airport? When the lies have been told about this "first super-system" for so long, why does JTA believe that any of us are going to embrace the new super-BRT-system.?

Seems to me that at some point, we simply MUST give in and accept the fact that the Skyway will have to be finished. It's either "finish it", or the option of putting up historic markers throughout it's route, preserving it's memory as the largest sculpture to "Transit Stupidity"...

Ocklawaha

[travelingfood]

expand it all along the downtown river area might be helpful. and probably do a loop to san marco area.

I'm imagining stop to place like Avandale all the way to the stadium. And another route to San Marco area. Basically where the restaurants, shops are located. That also means to rebuild another bridge just for that...

[Ocklawaha]

No, another line or two to San Marco would NOT involve building another bridge. The Skyway is now true Monorail, which means it can be switched from one track to another. Ever hear that voice onboard that says "The Skyway is making an unscheduled stop, it will resume the tip in just a moments". When you hear that, it means that the Skyway is moving the beam, or throwing the switch from one line to another. So with a very easy addition of a double track, but single beam set of lines down Riverside to Roselle to PS-4 Francis Lytle, Ditto for the San Marco extension, or the Stadium Area. The traffic computer can mix and match the trains for their destinations and route them in turn over the bridge. Hope this gives you some encouragement.

Ocklawaha

[travelingfood]

if that can be efficiently done to expand it all along the downtown riverside, more power to them
more restaurants and events will welcome such expansion as long as enough people rely on them.

[riveree]

Originally Posted by travelingfood

expand it all along the downtown river area might be helpful. and probably do a loop to san marco area.

I'm imagining stop to place like Avandale all the way to the stadium. And another route to San Marco area. Basically where the restaurants, shops are located. That also means to rebuild another bridge just for that...

I agree. For the skyway to be useful, it has to connect entertainment destinations. Connecting shopping and dining locations with sporting and art locations...this could get a circuit going on the weekends.

I do like the idea of being elevated above ground, it's nice to have a view.

[coolyfett]

The Skyway......Ahhh the old JTA Skyway. Will it ever be finished?? Who thought that stopping at 8 stations what a bright idea? The Skyway needs..........

[ttefylooc]

Originally Posted by travelingfood

expand it all along the downtown river area might be helpful. and probably do a loop to san marco area.

I'm imagining stop to place like Avondale all the way to the stadium. And another route to San Marco area. Basically where the restaurants, shops are located. That also means to rebuild another bridge just for that...

It definitely needs to be extended to Riverside, Springfield, San Marco & Sports Complex, The Jacksonville train needs to go where people live imho.