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View Poll Results: who are your for?
obama 38 44.71%
mccain 36 42.35%
none of the above 10 11.76%
who cares? 1 1.18%
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-20-2008, 06:45 PM
 
2,414 posts, read 4,213,051 times
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Riv...no offense, your a Great American (LOL!) , but this just goes to show how the American public is mislead by the media. You automatically assume that because I fall into the category that taxes will be raised on, that I somehow have this free flowing income of $250k coming into my pockets every year. You are completely off base and do not understand how owning and running a small company works.

I will try to make this simple....My company is a Subchapter S Corporation, which means, whatever profit, if any, my company has at the end of the fiscal year, has to be reported directly on my PERSONAL income tax. That money is still sitting in a Corporate account, to be used for more material, manpower, equipment, pay raises, next years taxes, etc. etc. etc.

That money may never ever reach my hands but yet I still have to pay tax on it. I'll make it even simpler. If I take a salary of $50k per year, and the company makes $200k in profit....even though that money will be used for future expansion and to employ more people and pay the ones I have even more, never reaching my hands, I will still be taxed on it, at a God forsaken rate of 38% as it already stands.

As for retiring now, that would be at an extremely modest retirement. It would be extremely simple and I would have to cut coupons and cut corners and cut a lot of stuff for that matter, all I'm saying is it could be done. I don't have $5mm in the bank where I could just stop doing anything and continue to live a comfortable lifestyle. It was meant as a worst case scenario example. As I stated in a prior post, if you don't own a Sub S Corp. it is hard to grasp the concept. If more people went out on their own and started their own business, they would understand so much more how this would affect the economy. You don't even have to agree, but just try and understand, it is not as simple as I make $250k a year, and I can afford more taxes. That is simply not an accurate statement and an extreme oversimplication of a complicated tax system, which is another topic for another thread!


Quote:
Originally Posted by riveree View Post
If you will be affected by Obama's tax plan, then you must be making an income of $250k or greater. If you decide of your own free will to pull your money out of the stock market and take an income hit of 30%, that will still leave you with an income of $175k...not too shabby by most standards. Can you not live comfortably on $175k a year? You'd have to cut employees so you can recapture their salaries and get your income back up to $250k? You said you can retire right now if you wanted to, so the necessity is not computing for me.

It's actually a good example of how trickle-down economics don't work, it's time to trickle-up!

95% of Americans are not making $250k or more per year, so Obama's tax plan benefits them. I don't think people need to be in fear that if the $250k+ crowd has to pay more taxes they will suddenly lose their jobs. In order for the "bosses" to earn a living, they are reliant on the "labor" of the workers....no labor, no product, no profit .

Forget the Jimmy Carter years, let's go back further, let's talk French Revolution! :

 
Old 09-20-2008, 06:50 PM
 
2,414 posts, read 4,213,051 times
Reputation: 3791
Default Sorry Landshark

I did not see your post before I posted mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LandShark99 View Post
Riveree and the rest of you who do not understand how small businesses work:

Small Business Taxes-1.01

Most small businesses today are incorporated as "S" Corporations. That means the owners pay income taxes for themselves and the business. So if you pay yourself $100k (Most small business owners would die to be able to pay themselves that! $50-$80k is more like it.) and the company makes $150k on paper, since you are an "S" Corporation, according to the IRS you made $250k and you personally pay income taxes on $250k. Of the $150 corporate "profit" you might advertise (that is not an expense according to the IRS and it is taxable), buy a copier, a couple of new computers, (IRS taxes you on office equipment) hire someone, buy or lease them a company car, or buy accounting software to help do your taxes ($90k is the going rate for decent software, a far cry from the best) and the rest goes to inventory. You are faced with choosing what you need the most because $150k won't go far in business expenses. Without inventory you have nothing to sell. Now what do have left? Are you living off $250k? No. I can tell you you are living off of your net salary after taxes. (Yes, you could spend the $150 but what would you sell if your shelves are empty? That's how people bankrupt their small businesses - greed.)

How about your Accounts Receivable? IRS says they are assets and therefore taxable because you can sell them to collection agencies for a fraction of their value if you are desperate for cash. How does this fit in with your $150 profit? Well, the IRS dosen't care if customers owe you a total of $10k to $100k unpaid. You sold them $xxx.xx and billed them, therefore you made profit in their eyes. You are so taxed. Spend that.

Like I said it's a paper profit.

Raising taxes hurts small businesses. Period.
I am qualified to make that statement.
 
Old 09-20-2008, 07:34 PM
 
Location: Jax
8,200 posts, read 35,340,143 times
Reputation: 3441
Quote:
Originally Posted by cricketfan View Post
Joe Biden has a way with words. During the primary he said disparagingly of Obama (and I quote) "the White House is not a place for on-the-job training".

In case we forget, Joe Biden is Obama's vice presidential candidate.

Four years in national politics and two of those years preparing to be President of the most powerful nation on earth. This is the main reason I am still struggling to make my decision in this election. (And please don't bring up Palin to make a point, we're talking here about the top of the ticket).

Unlike my friend Riv, I am still undecided. And like Riv, I'm still listening to everyone though I didn't make it to the rally.
Biden did say that, and we can find those kind of guffaws from all the candidates. He said it while he was in competition with Obama, and my guess would be that he was saying what he had to say to try and win. He also said some really good things about Obama during that period. It is what it is and he said it, but I'm not putting too much weight on it.
 
Old 09-20-2008, 07:46 PM
 
Location: Jax
8,200 posts, read 35,340,143 times
Reputation: 3441
As I read and understood Shaken's first post...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShakenStirred View Post

I own 2 businesses, which employ hard working tradesmen and women as well. I also have a large investment in the stock market which gives me roughly 30% of my income in the form of dividends. I fall squarely into the income bracket that Barack Obama has said he will raise the taxes on. If he does so, here's what will happen:
So doesn't that mean your personal income would have to be $250k or greater in order for you to be affected? If you meant your business income is $250k, that's something else, but I thought you were speaking of your personal income (and that it was consistently in this range).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShakenStirred View Post
Riv...no offense, your a Great American (LOL!) , but this just goes to show how the American public is mislead by the media. You automatically assume that because I fall into the category that taxes will be raised on, that I somehow have this free flowing income of $250k coming into my pockets every year. You are completely off base and do not understand how owning and running a small company works...
I understand how small business finances work, I had a small business of my own years back and I am slowly building a new one now (hence my odd hours on the forum). Mine fall into the micro-business category, but I get the basic concept. I would think most small business owners would be thrilled at Obama's health care plans, that could save business owners a ton of money, but maybe that's not of interest to all small business owners, I don't know.
 
Old 09-20-2008, 09:15 PM
 
2,414 posts, read 4,213,051 times
Reputation: 3791
Quote:
Originally Posted by riveree View Post
As I read and understood Shaken's first post...



So doesn't that mean your personal income would have to be $250k or greater in order for you to be affected? If you meant your business income is $250k, that's something else, but I thought you were speaking of your personal income (and that it was consistently in this range).



I understand how small business finances work, I had a small business of my own years back and I am slowly building a new one now (hence my odd hours on the forum). Mine fall into the micro-business category, but I get the basic concept. I would think most small business owners would be thrilled at Obama's health care plans, that could save business owners a ton of money, but maybe that's not of interest to all small business owners, I don't know.
That's where you are not getting the picture. Please read the posts that I and Landshark have both written carefully. The profits on paper for the corporation are considered, by IRS Rules, to be your personal income. That's they way a Subchapter S Works. Big corporations are C Corps, and they pay Corporate taxes....Small corps are either S Corps or LLC's and the owners and/or managing partners are responsible for the taxes, which are merely paper profits that are transferred onto your personal income tax statement. For you to say that people shouldn't be threatened by this tax increase is to be ignorant of how the tax code works for small businesses. That's not meant as in insult.

I don't know what type of business you are working on, but I truly hope it is successful, and I hope you are making enough profits really fast that you will understand how this works. It's already tough enough on small business owners as it is, and many small businesses are going under rapidly right now because of the housing meltdown. Obama's tax plan will greatly accelerate the number of small business bankruptcies, as many are just barely hanging by a thread as it is. A 5% increase could send many over the edge.

All I'm saying is, if the economy is your #1 priority in deciding who to vote for, Obama is not the one you choose. It's simple economics, which should be taught in high school in my opinion. We are the small business owners across America who are keeping this distraught economy hanging on by a very thin thead. The big banks and insurers are getting boosted and supported by the gov't. but nobody is going to come bail us out and give us a break.

Seriously, I wish you great success in your business, and if there is anything I can do to help (you know what field I'm in) feel free to let me know. But, don't come crying to me when you can't afford your quarterly estimated taxes based on the previous years income!!!! If you understand what I just said, great. If you don't understand what I just said, your not yet qualified to vote in an election, and I don't mean that disparagingly.

As for Obama's Health Care Plan...who are your kidding? Nothing, absolutely nothing will change with health care. What is going to happen is this.....the costs are going to continue to skyrocket until most businesses can't afford to pay for part of their employees health care. Then, the employees will lose coverage, and most people will end up without health care. Then the insurance companies will start to suffer (due to a loss of customers) and show massive losses, just like the banks and financials are today, and the gov't will have to step in and take them over, and boom....you've got national health care. Neither Obama nor McCain will do anything about this...it's going to happen all by itself.

So what else you want to debate riv.....Immigration? Abortion? Gov't Bailouts? National Defense? Education? These are all important of course, and we probably agree on more than you think, since I divurge greatly with some of the Republican stances on these issues. However, economic issues and national defense are my #1 and #2 priorities, so I have to vote with my head on these 2 issues, not my emotions or feelings, but pure raw unbiased data that is laid out in black and white. If I let emotions get involved, I would have a very hard time making a decision. I really hope the Libertarian Party can gain some ground in the next 4-8 years, because I think that might be the party to get us back on track, but things might have to go to crap before that can happen. Like some of the other posters on here said, it'd be nice to have some other parties to vote for and think that they actually had a chance of winning.
 
Old 09-21-2008, 04:12 AM
 
Location: in the southwest
13,396 posts, read 44,888,052 times
Reputation: 13599
Quote:
Originally Posted by LandShark99 View Post
Taxes stiffle small business growth. Small businesses can't afford in-house accountants and in-house tax attorneys like the big corps can and the govt knows it. That's why they target small businesses for audits. I know that personally and professionally.

McCain-Palin for me.
And the McCain-Palin planes flew overhead for a good hour and a half at that Obama rally. How much money do you think that cost? Somebody sure has some $, to afford that kind of advertising. All that fuel and pollution, just to buzz a rally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KerryB View Post
But it doesn't take a political scientist to know the country cant afford another Republican president, or at least the new breed Republican. We're gonna spend & over-stretch ourselves into oblivion. Its happening now if you haven't noticed.
Yes!
I met up with a bunch of people to go to the rally in Jax. People I had never met before.
The guy I rode with is Republican, a 55 year old successful TAX ATTORNEY, who is personally acquainted with Charlie Crist.
He has an Obama sticker on his car. He's gone through the numbers, he's seeing what is happening to his country, he is voting Obama.
Obama asked small business owners last year how he could help them, and got some interesting answers:
How can the next president better help small business and entrepreneurs thrive?
Economics is so many different factors, contigencies, incentives, game theory: A small business owner going out on your own means just that: going out on your own. Going through all those tax hoops looks intimidating, to be sure.
However, going through another Republican presidency looks like utter disaster to me. My husband was laid off in January, we are bringing in less money now than is going out. This election is bigger than that, though.
Obama '08
 
Old 09-21-2008, 08:42 AM
 
2,414 posts, read 4,213,051 times
Reputation: 3791
Lightbulb Facts vs. Fantasies

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueWillowPlate View Post
And the McCain-Palin planes flew overhead for a good hour and a half at that Obama rally. How much money do you think that cost? Somebody sure has some $, to afford that kind of advertising. All that fuel and pollution, just to buzz a rally.

Yes!
I met up with a bunch of people to go to the rally in Jax. People I had never met before.
The guy I rode with is Republican, a 55 year old successful TAX ATTORNEY, who is personally acquainted with Charlie Crist.
He has an Obama sticker on his car. He's gone through the numbers, he's seeing what is happening to his country, he is voting Obama.
Obama asked small business owners last year how he could help them, and got some interesting answers:
How can the next president better help small business and entrepreneurs thrive?
Economics is so many different factors, contigencies, incentives, game theory: A small business owner going out on your own means just that: going out on your own. Going through all those tax hoops looks intimidating, to be sure.
However, going through another Republican presidency looks like utter disaster to me. My husband was laid off in January, we are bringing in less money now than is going out. This election is bigger than that, though.
Obama '08

BlueWillow....I am sorry about your husbands situation, I truly am. Being involved in the construction industry, I have many close friends and associates that are layed off and have been looking for work hard, and cannot find it.

But all that aside, what Landshark and I have provided in our posts in terms of which candidate will be best suited for economic purposes, is based on actual facts, current situations, and puts aside personal "feelings" in order to come to a rational conclusion. If economic policies are not your #1 priority, you may want to choose Obama as your candidate. I have no problem with that.

The link you provided in your post provided a nothing but a link to a lot of wishful thinking on behalf of a large pool of people from all over. There is nothing in there nor nothing on the Barack Obama website that I have read that would benefit the small business owner....to the contrary, as I, Landshark and others have explained, his economic plan will be harmful to small business and I firmly believe, will send this already shaky economy into a true depression. Tax cuts will mean nothing if unemployment rises to 10 or 15%.

The fact of the matter is, the financial state of our county is already cooked pretty bad....and McCain or Obama, whoever gets elected, is going to inherit and absolute mess that is going to take more than 4 or 8 years to fix. Of course they will still be blamed or praised in 2012, depending on what happens with the economy, but neither one will be deserving of the praise nor the blame.

I know it's hard for some of you to remove "feelings" completely from the equation, especially Obama supporters. His whole campaign is based on "feelings" and making people feel like some grand change is coming. I assure you, if you know anything about politics and politicians, then you know there is no great change coming. So if you take the feelings out, look at the hard facts and policies....McCain is the best candidate to elect for economic policy for me, and Obama's proposed tax increases on small business's will hurt me, which will in turn hurt my employees in the form of pay freezes, lay off, reduced benefits, etc.. That's facts, not some fantasy of change that is being sprinkled around like fairy dust.

Please read the small business posts Landshark and I have posted carefully. These are facts, not opinions, and people should try harder to distinguish between the two, even though it's difficult. If you were trying to debate that Obama would be better for small business, you provided absolutely no argument or factual information at all.

Again, I am very sorry about your husbands situation. I have personally had to lay off over 30 people in the past year. Do you know how emotionally draining that has been for me? Still, I have to vote with my head, and voting for Obama is NOT going to bring back those employees anytime soon. It will, without a doubt, cause me to have to lay off even more. Tax Increase = Less Money for Business = Fewer Employees. It's very simple math.
 
Old 09-21-2008, 08:44 AM
 
Location: Beautiful place in Virginia
2,679 posts, read 11,697,500 times
Reputation: 1360
Quote:
Originally Posted by titaniummd View Post
Obama's voting record:
Project Vote Smart - Senator Barack H. Obama Jr. - Voting Record

Mccain's voting record:
Project Vote Smart - Senator John Sidney McCain III - Voting Record

Obama is a bit of an unknown when it comes to experience. He is very eloquent and charismatic but so is an Insurance Salesman.

Mccain doesn't have much charisma.

I would like to see who the running mates are to make a decision between the two.

Who knows? Maybe Bloomberg will run for president.
Sara doesn't have much of a record. However, she seems safe enough for the country not to worry. She is a beautiful woman and IF she ends up on the the next currency (maybe a silver dollar) - it will encourage me to save my money/coins!
 
Old 09-21-2008, 09:35 AM
 
Location: in the southwest
13,396 posts, read 44,888,052 times
Reputation: 13599
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShakenStirred View Post
Obama's proposed tax increases on small business's will hurt me, which will in turn hurt my employees in the form of pay freezes, lay off, reduced benefits, etc.. That's facts, not some fantasy of change that is being sprinkled around like fairy dust.
heh
I love how you tell me how "sorry" you are, then write up your mathematical equation and punctuate it with a smilie.
When it comes to voting with head or heart, I guess it depends on how a person feels about his place within a community, and the Big Picture.
My take on it:
My "wishful thinking" link means there is a dialogue going on.
Feelings are a part of a national psyche. A national psyche can have a huge effect on the national economy.
The idea is to create jobs, improve living standards and get the money flowing.
If we look to the past, we can see patterns of productivity (GDP growth) per capita. And we have to think about regulation (and deregulation) too. Everyone (read: tax cut enthusiasts) predicted sheer economic disaster when Clinton took office, and the opposite happened.
Angus Maddison (world economy)
America per capita gdp growth:
1820-1870: 1.34
1870-1913: 1.82
1913-1950: 1.61
1950-1973: 2.45
1973-1998: 1.99
I look at the patterns, I see where this is going. But I am not a small business owner, I understand you have a very different point of view.
 
Old 09-21-2008, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Jax
8,200 posts, read 35,340,143 times
Reputation: 3441
Quote:
Originally Posted by titaniummd View Post
Sara doesn't have much of a record. However, she seems safe enough for the country not to worry. She is a beautiful woman and IF she ends up on the the next currency (maybe a silver dollar) - it will encourage me to save my money/coins!
She seems safe enough?? Maybe for you men, but not for women.

Do you know that when she was mayor of Wasilla she changed the law and made women pay for their own rape kits? Alaska has the highest rate of incest and rape in the US and she's making women pay when they are raped.

And no matter where you might stand on the pro-choice/pro-life side, let me ask you this: Sarah Palin wants no exceptions for abortions in cases of rape and incest, does she have a plan to track down the rapists and have them pay child support for the 18 years of childcare she's now hoisted solely upon the woman who was raped? Or in the case of incest, the child who was raped?

You also might want to look into her Assemblies of God connection, she is definitely on the fringes of what most religious Americans believe to be "normal". She has Russia furious over her statements regarding their issue with Georgia.

I certainly don't view her as "safe" in any meaning of the word .
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