Florida... Not for Gays (Tallahassee: house, school, live)

[joninclay]

How is that not reasonable? You cannot (ok, ok, should not), force your view upon others. I am not asking Christians to shack up with someone of the same sex, I am asking why must you impose your views upon others.

I think I thoroughly explained how it is not reasonable for anyone to expect Christians to leave their views outside the ballot box. A true believer is NOT allowed to ignore their religion on issues that are political, social, or anything else. "In all things, do for the glory of God." God isn't glorified if we ignore his commandments in order to be socially acceptable. I don't want to go around in circles here anymore.

For Christians, it's not a matter of "forcing your views on others", but a matter of us upholding God's word. God's word tells us in plain language that marriage is a holy institution that is to be between men and women, and the contrary is not to be encouraged by Christians. When the matter came to a vote, Christians had a religious duty to vote Yes on Amendment 2. I'm sorry that you do not understand or if that is unacceptable to you.

If it were the true desire for Christians to "force their views onto others", there would be, for example, a statewide effort to ban unmarried couples (whether hetero or homo) from living together or having intercourse outside of wedlock. Such an effort would likely fail massively, but the point is that as far as I know, there is no such effort.

If I may, let's try reversing this for a moment: What if FL passed a law or constitutional amendment that legalized gay marriage? How would you respond if I said "Why are non-Christians forcing their views onto us Christians?" I doubt you would see it as "forcing a view onto others", would you?

Anywho, I think I've belabored the point long enough, and I know I'm not going to persuade anyone here, so I think I'll leave it at that for the time being. We will just have to "agree to disgree" on this issue.

[KerryB]

Well, lets take away what the amendment actual said & look at what it represents. Its basically letting voters decide to take away personal rights from individuals. That kind of stuff should never even make it to the ballot in the first place.

What it actually was about is pretty irrelevant. If you believe in equality & personal rights, then there's no way you could have voted for this (although Im sure most of you claim to believe in those things & voted for it anyway based on personal feelings/religious beliefs. Dont try to say you didnt because thats horsesh*t).

[Jimrob1]

The only elections should be to elect politicians to their respective office. By no means should this country be allowed to vote on any groups private life. As far as I am concerned with the many serious problems in this country for this topic to be put in these elections is ignorance and predjudice. My hope is that gays will have finally said enough is enough and give it back. Push the entire matters to the Supreme Court and not give up until this ignorance stops. It is far from just being gay marriage in this country that is bothering those that push these agendas to the ballot. No sane person would have spent this much time on anti gay initiatives with all that is so seriously wrong in this country, unless they were extremely predjudiced.

[tallrick]

Originally Posted by gradco2004

[ ] It is against the law for a gay person to adopt a child in Florida.

[ ] Gay citizens are no longer provided the legal protections and benefits of civil unions or domestic partnerships.

[ ] An employer who provides health benefits to couples in a domestic partnership or civil union is open to lawsuits for providing such benefits.

Why would any GLBTC community members want to move or remain here? At first it wasn't so bad, but a GLBTC person is truely a second class citizen in every sense of the word.

Gays cannot live more than a few miles from the ocean. They hate cold weather. Therefore they will continue to come and reside in Florida no matter what laws are against them. Besides most gay men cannot have a boyfriend for more than a month, so why would they want to get married?

[TANaples]

Originally Posted by joninclay

No, they didn't. That is what I am upset about. They only considered their own selfish views.

I respectfully disagree. I think people did consider different views, but in the end, didn't think these different views were in line with their values or beliefs. Just because someone doesn't vote one way doesn't mean they never considered that way. For example, I considered both major candidates for president and concluded that one was far more preferable than the other.

We would be so much better off I people could (and once again WOULD) look past their religion

apanda, asking people to look past their own religion is not reasonable. Would you ask a Muslim to look past his/her religion and eat a slab of bacon? Would you ask a preacher of any religion to look past his religion and drop an f-bomb during a sermon?

If you are a true born-again Christian, God compels you to keep His word. You are not allowed to separate God's word from your own personal beliefs or preferences if you are a true born-again Christian.

Colossians 3:17: “And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.” This destroys any perceived nobility in keeping politics out of one’s “religion”. Paul notes that God forbids any such separation.

1 Corinthians 10:31: “Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.” This includes voting. BTW, “All” in the original Greek text, is interesting because the Greek word here for “all” means…wait for it…ALL !

Proverbs 3:6 "In all your ways, acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths" In what ways are we commanded to ackowledge Him? “Some”? “Many”? “Most”? “Nearly all, except for politics”? Nope..."all"!

If you're not a born-again Christian, then obviously this advice doesn't apply to you. But if you are, you don't get the luxury of following the world's rules and God's rules when they conflict. God's word is clear, even if it's not politically correct.

My friend, you and will have to cordially "agree to disagree".

I have to say to you, you and YOUR RELIGION have no right to define what MY marriage is. Putting aside the issue of gay marriage, how DARE you attempt to tell me that my marriage is a "sacred, holy institution". I made a committment to husband and the state, not YOUR GOD. I signed a LEGAL CONTRACT stating that. A civil marriage contract is no more sacred and holy than is a MORTGAGE. We do not have a Christian theocracy in this country. You can preach YOUR RELIGION from your soapbox and you have that right, but I also have the same right as an American citizen to turn and walk away from you, EXCEPT, when you obviously are failing in your attempts, you try to LEGISLATE your religion on everybody else.

Get out of everybody elses lives and just live your own life according whatever your religion says. Don't attempt to force the rest of us, straight or gay, to live according to YOUR Christianity.

You and your kind are why government needs to get out of marriage and just issue CIVIL UNIONS (CONTRACTS) for EVERYBODY. People like you cannot separate religion and government.

[joninclay]

Blah-blah...what's the word I'm looking for? Oh, yes, now I remember...blah.

God bless you and yours, TANaples.

[tamcim72]

nicely put TANaples.

[clay]

Originally Posted by KerryB

Well, lets take away what the amendment actual said & look at what it represents. Its basically letting voters decide to take away personal rights from individuals. That kind of stuff should never even make it to the ballot in the first place.

It's done all the time. Almost all laws take away (or limit) personal rights to some extent.
The "right" to steal, cheat, murder, smoke, not wear a seatbelt, spank your child, eat transfats, etc. Obviously these aren't considered "rights" and that would be where the debate hinges, but choices and freedoms are limited by laws all the time. Obviously painting the issue as a right that is being limited does make it seem unfair, but I'm just pointing out that many laws limit behavior. Sometimes even moral behavior. Sometimes these laws coincide with religious teachings as well.

I agree it shouldn't be a ballot issue, but as the country moves more from a Republic to a Democracy every day, people will weigh in on more and more, and leave less and less to elected representatives. You should see all the stuff California puts on their ballots. Also as the courts overstep their intended authority and legislate, people will weigh in on ballots to try and counter them. I'm all for all people achieving whatever laws they desire, just do it through the legislature. That's what they are there for.

The California example is a good one. Judges overrulling the collective (majority) will of the people may not seem like a bad idea when you agree with them, but one day they will do it on something you don't agree with him on.

An interesting (unsourced) tidbit on judges I heard once: California juries hand out the most capital punishment sentences in the US, but Texas has the most capital punishments performed in the US. Why the difference? Judges overrule the juries in Cali.

[ucfjtm]

Originally Posted by CLTKing

Useless thread. The votes were casts and counted. FL is anti-gay. Too bad for FL, gays spend a great amount of money traveling, and for sure I will not be wasting my vacation money where I am not welcome. There goes FL's only industry.

By that argument, California is anti-gay. That's laughable. However, that's simply the state of the country we're at with regards to gay rights. Once the younger generation has the majority of the voting bloc in another 10 years, I highly suspect these amendments will be voted on and repealed in the more liberal states, Florida included.

[joninclay]

You may be right, ucf. I think it will take more than 10 years, but I'm admittedly just guessing. However, like I mentioned earlier, we are a nation of laws, so have processes in place for your scenario to happen.