When Did Consolidation Become a Bad Word?? (Jacksonville, Tampa: crime, neighborhoods)

[riveree]

Jacksonville was consolidated back in the 1960's. Smaller cities were all merged into one jurisdiction. Not every city in the area consolidated, we still have Atlantic Beach, Neptune Beach, Jacksonville Beach and Baldwin that remain their own cities/towns.

Based on what some say on the forums, you'd think consolidation was a crime and Jacksonville was the only city ever to consolidate. Other consolidated cities are Anchorage, Denver, New Orleans, Nantucket...

Do these cities get bad-mouthed for being consolidated as well?

The consolidation explains much of why Jacksonville is so spread out, but if the consolidation never happened, we'd still be looking at the same land mass area and just calling it by multiple city names, so I'm not sure why people get so upset over it.

In the Jacksonville vs Tampa comparisons, you often hear how St. Pete ought to be part of Tampa, but wouldn't that be the dreaded consolidation?? And when people do a population comparison between the 2 cities, they usually count the areas surrounding Tampa into the population count and this is "okay", but Jacksonville's population number is "not okay" because our city is consolidated.....six of one, half dozen of the other.....

I just thought I'd start a separate thread since this comes up so often on the forum. Why is consolidation an issue that arises so frequently?

Here's some info on other consolidated cities:

Consolidated city-county - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What do you think about the fact that Jacksonville is a consolidated city?

[projectmaximus]

Indianapolis and Louisville are also consolidated.

I think that most people who are angered by consolidation feel misled after believing that Jacksonville is a bigger city than it really is. Through no fault of its own, Jacksonville's might deceive folks who don't understand the difference between a city and an MSA, and expect to find much more in our city based on the numbers. I think it's that simple...obviously consolidation was an avenue chosen to improve the quality of life here and efficiency of municipal services rather than a tactic to artificially boost Jacksonville's standing. But some people might take it the wrong way.

Then again, consolidation might be a bad word even to those who understand it. There's plenty of sentiment existing that our downtown would be vibrant if it was its own municipality, and had to fight for its survival. Since consolidation, some believe apathy for our urban core has led to its rapid deterioration over the decades and has also slowed many revitalization efforts. I don't know enough to have a strong opinion one way or another, but yes, in this sense, consolidation can be viewed as a bad thing.

[joninclay]

I don't know that consolidation is in and of itself a bad thing. It has to be examined on a case-by-case basis.

For example, my hometown of Memphis is located in Shelby County. The Memphis City Schools are so horribly bad that they make ALL Duval County public schools look like Ivy League institutions. That's not an exaggeration: 26 of the state's worst 50 performing public schools (elementary, middle, and high) are all in the Memphis City School district.

By contrast, the Shelby County public schools are some of the best in the state. State law states that for every $1 of public funding that Shelby County Schools receive, Memphis City Schools are to receive $3. In other words, the taxpayers are throwing tons of money at the failing Memphis City Schools, while the Shelby County schools are expected to do more with less...and they do.

Anywho, every year, Memphians try their darndest to consolidate Shelby County cities into a consolidated Memphis/Shelby County. Memphians think that will make their schools even better, and Shelby County citizens think it will make their own schools even worse. Considering that the power structure is in Memphis (and the mayor has cronies in every level of government there), the prevailing thought is that the same losers who have run the City schools into the ground would do the same once they're put in charge of the County schools.

Therefore, in the Memphis/Shelby County case, consolidation is a horrible idea. Results elsewhere may vary.

My $0.02 worth.

[Joe 4520832257]

I think consolidation has been a great thing for Jax (and Denver, and Indy, and Louisville), and it would probably be an economic boon to many other cities as well. It's simple economic efficiency. There's less duplication of the bureaucracy needed to run public services, and it minimizes frivilous competition between totally arbitrary city/town borderlines that would otherwise function as a seamless market area.

However, I agree 100% with projectmaximus' analysis. Consolidation confuses and angers many people who are geographically ignorant. They come to Jacksonville, wonder how on earth that this is a "city" of 800,000 people, and decided that Jax must be crap beacause it's more like Indy than Boston. They don't understand Jax is only a city of about 200,000 by its traditional city limits.

I also somewhat agree with the notion that consolidation can be bad for downtown. Our city council has a district system, with each councilman particularly invested in his neighborhood. Only 3 of our 19 councilmen have a district that covers part of downtown. Consequently, it's easy to see how urban core issues could be ignored in favor of more suburban sprawl.

However, you could also argue that without consolidation, Jacksonville would have turned into a Floridian Detroit. Imagine what the politics of a non-consolidated Jacksonville would have been like with pre-1968 city limits and mayor-for-life Corrine Brown!! There would be more subsidized housing, more social services, higher tax rates, lower tax base, and most of the wealthy people in Riverside, Avondale, and San Marco would have fled to the suburbs.

[coolyfett]

Well Riveree...One thing I do miss is living in a city and meeting a chick that lives in the same city. I am in Atlanta now, as you know and up here, what Jax calls a neighborhoods ie: Baymeadows, Argyle, Oceanway, Intercoastal etc Atl calls them cities! Its the dumbest thing I have ever seen. Could you imagine if Baymeadows or Oceanway or Cecil Field were their own cities with their own mayor and civic government? You get a speeding ticket in Arlington and live in on Dunn Ave, but you have to go all the way back to Arlington to deal with the ticket. Jacksonville should be glad that everything in Jacksonville is Jacksonville.

[projectmaximus]

Originally Posted by joninclay

I don't know that consolidation is in and of itself a bad thing. It has to be examined on a case-by-case basis.

For example, my hometown of Memphis is located in Shelby County. The Memphis City Schools are so horribly bad that they make ALL Duval County public schools look like Ivy League institutions. That's not an exaggeration: 26 of the state's worst 50 performing public schools (elementary, middle, and high) are all in the Memphis City School district.

By contrast, the Shelby County public schools are some of the best in the state. State law states that for every $1 of public funding that Shelby County Schools receive, Memphis City Schools are to receive $3. In other words, the taxpayers are throwing tons of money at the failing Memphis City Schools, while the Shelby County schools are expected to do more with less...and they do.

Anywho, every year, Memphians try their darndest to consolidate Shelby County cities into a consolidated Memphis/Shelby County. Memphians think that will make their schools even better, and Shelby County citizens think it will make their own schools even worse. Considering that the power structure is in Memphis (and the mayor has cronies in every level of government there), the prevailing thought is that the same losers who have run the City schools into the ground would do the same once they're put in charge of the County schools.

Therefore, in the Memphis/Shelby County case, consolidation is a horrible idea. Results elsewhere may vary.

My $0.02 worth.

That's interesting, Jon. I remember reading (it may very well have been on this site) about how poor the Memphis school system is, and I think I heard that the school board there is the nicest building in the city...seems like they're rolling in money but dont spend it wisely.

[riveree]

Originally Posted by Joe 4520832257

I also somewhat agree with the notion that consolidation can be bad for downtown. Our city council has a district system, with each councilman particularly invested in his neighborhood. Only 3 of our 19 councilmen have a district that covers part of downtown. Consequently, it's easy to see how urban core issues could be ignored in favor of more suburban sprawl.

That's a good explanation for why downtown and some of the neighborhoods surrounding downtown get ignored. The "Town Center Plans" only cost $1mil each and would do wonders for the older neighborhoods near downtown and yet year after year goes by and the city doesn't fund them. Meanwhile, it can cost $1mil to build an intersection and look how many of those the city builds each year! Yup, the more urban areas get ignored .

Thanks for the comments everyone, lots of good insight on the pros and cons of consolidation .

[joninclay]

Originally Posted by projectmaximus

That's interesting, Jon. I remember reading (it may very well have been on this site) about how poor the Memphis school system is, and I think I heard that the school board there is the nicest building in the city...seems like they're rolling in money but dont spend it wisely.

That's largely correct. I recall a few years ago that there were schools whose AC units failed during the summer, and the schools couldn't get them fixed until the next fiscal year. Meanwhile, the MCS board building has plush accommodations. I guess in the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man gets to be the king!

[ShakenStirred]

Originally Posted by riveree

Jacksonville was consolidated back in the 1960's. Smaller cities were all merged into one jurisdiction. Not every city in the area consolidated, we still have Atlantic Beach, Neptune Beach, Jacksonville Beach and Baldwin that remain their own cities/towns.

Based on what some say on the forums, you'd think consolidation was a crime and Jacksonville was the only city ever to consolidate. Other consolidated cities are Anchorage, Denver, New Orleans, Nantucket...

Do these cities get bad-mouthed for being consolidated as well?

The consolidation explains much of why Jacksonville is so spread out, but if the consolidation never happened, we'd still be looking at the same land mass area and just calling it by multiple city names, so I'm not sure why people get so upset over it.

In the Jacksonville vs Tampa comparisons, you often hear how St. Pete ought to be part of Tampa, but wouldn't that be the dreaded consolidation?? And when people do a population comparison between the 2 cities, they usually count the areas surrounding Tampa into the population count and this is "okay", but Jacksonville's population number is "not okay" because our city is consolidated.....six of one, half dozen of the other.....

I just thought I'd start a separate thread since this comes up so often on the forum. Why is consolidation an issue that arises so frequently?

Here's some info on other consolidated cities:

Consolidated city-county - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What do you think about the fact that Jacksonville is a consolidated city?

Over the past several years, many of my competitors could not stay in business because of my outstanding reputation in the construction industry, and have since become consolidated into my business. I'm a firm believer in consolidation!!