Florida Coastal School of Law...should I go? (homes, bankruptcy)
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Perhaps I wasn’t clear on my post. Allow me to clarify. I wasn’t suggesting that being an assistant state attorney wasn’t a good start out of law school. My friend graduated in 2005’ and has had that position now for 6 years.
The problem is that she hit the ceiling of her salary at around 50k a year. Now I am not saying that 50k is a not respectable salary, but if you borrowed 150k in student loans to get it, then you lost the game right out of the gate.
My friend has a student loan payment of around $800 a month. As a result, that 50k gets widdled down to used car salesman wages. She told me that she has sent out hundreds of resumes and tried to network, but she can’t even get an interview for any other law position. She feels trapped. She has even tried to get jobs outside the field of law to no avail.
The Florida Bar news has a section in the back with job listings. Consistently for the past few months, firms like Conroy Simberg and Vernis and Bowling have have ads looking for people for various offices in the state. Could be a good place to send resumes to. Insurance defense appears to be one of the only areas of apparent growth these days!
TriMT7, I am not sure what the Florida Bar news is, but I will pass it along to her…
Even if they are hiring, the problem is that according the article below, there are 100 working attorneys competing for every 1 law job. That is staggering. No wonder my lawyer friends can’t find jobs.
I remember when I graduated college, my circle of friends were at a crossroads. I remember being jealous of my friends who got into law school thinking that down the road their future would be bright. I took a different route and thought I was selling my future short.
I went into the IT field and have had a 100k job for the past 5 years. I often get at least one call a month from a “headhunter” trying to lure me away for a even higher paying job. I have traveled all over the country for my job. I just got back from a work conference in San Francisco on my employers dime. I am living the dream, yet reverse about 10 years ago and I thought I was the guy selling my future short.
My friends who went to law school were the ones that were supposed to be living my life. Instead, they are in the depths of hell and living a life of abject poverty. Their dream has turned into a living nightmare.
I am a 2006 graduate of FCSL. I am licensed to practice law in two midwestern states. I now have approximately $200K in law school debt. I am unemployed, and have recently defaulted on my student loans. I have taken every step imaginable to obtain some kind of legal career. My life is miserable. I am in contact with eight or nine friends from FCSL who are all basically in the same position. All of these folks, like me, were average to very good students academically. All but one of them passed a bar exam and became licensed. Only one of these people has ever found work as an attorney. That person was originally hired as a paralegal, but eventually was promoted within her firm. The school is telling outright lies about 1) the amount of debt that their students acqiure 2) their graduate's student loan default rate, and 3) the employment statistics related to their alumni. We all agree that FCSL was a tremendous mistake. Take my advice and do ANYTHING other than begin law school at Florida Coastal.
*I am not affiliated in any way with the group of students who have sued FCSL. I don't even know any of those plaintiffs.
Yeah, you can see my posts above about your situation. Not that it's any consolation, but I hear the same stories from law school grads in Texas, where I went to law school. Honestly, (even with the debt you already have) you might think about pursuing another degree where there is more of a certainty of being able to have a career, maybe even including health care, accounting, engineering, etc.
Even with my cynicism, I'm glad that I have the legal knowledge that I have. You could still go on to another career and never mention that you went to law school to employers and co-workers, if you didn't want the rude questions. But you would still have the knowledge to use for your own benefit. None of my neighbors or others that I do business with now know that I was once a lawyer.
I'm not optimistic about the future of law. There are WAY TOO MANY lawyers of all ages to fill existing openings and practicing on your own today is about like opening a pizza joint. Actually, the pizza joint sounds better to me. At least you can eat the leftovers, something you can't do in a law office. I don't see the situation getting better within the next ten years.
Thank you. But I can't move on from it becuase my student loan debt will follow me forever. I can't go back to school now that I have defaulted on student loans. For that matter, I can't buy a car, house, or even marry my fiance because the debt will then just crush her as well. I have tried and tried to come up with any answer... Your advice is appreciated, however.
Thank you. But I can't move on from it becuase my student loan debt will follow me forever. I can't go back to school now that I have defaulted on student loans. For that matter, I can't buy a car, house, or even marry my fiance because the debt will then just crush her as well. I have tried and tried to come up with any answer... Your advice is appreciated, however.
Maybe a community college diploma or degree in HVAC, electrical, electronics or other trade? Some of the CC's are cheap enough to pay for out of pocket (depending on your state) and it may give you a significantly better living than retail or restaurant. Some programs only take about a year and a half (or less) to complete.
I earned a CC Electronics Technology Degree long after law school and can make around $25 an hour, if I wanted to (but I'm doing other things now on my own).
You are spot on about that anchor of student loan debt following you forever. About a year ago I was having a talk with an attorney friend of mine who was in tears talking about his life. His student loan debt, as a result of going to law school, was crushing the very life out of him. He had yet found gainful employment as a lawyer and he had started drinking heavily.
Although I do not advocate bankruptcy, I told him to file to get a “new start on life” and save himself. He then informed me that you can not discharge student loan debt, not a penny.
I actually didn’t believe him and researched it myself. He was correct. I was shocked. The only way to get rid of your debt is to die! Actually, it is even worse than that as I read a story of a graduate being killed in a vehicle crash and then the student loan company came after the parents to collect. Wait, there is more! It gets worse! Student loan companies are EXEMPT from PREDATORY LENDING LAWS. That means they can really **** you over and HEAP ON the penalty and late fees on you should you default. Unbelievable. How is this legal?
Lawyers, at least in the general sense, have the reputation of being the “smartest people in the room”. I have 2 doctor friends who are doing great….I don’t know any dentists but they seem to be doing fine. My friends and I in the IT field are living the dream. Yet the smartest people in room, the lawyers, have allowed themselves to fall for one of the biggest scams since Enron,
I am not trying to be harsh, but how in the hell does that happen?
Like Robyn55 said several posts back, “Lawyers are a dime a dozen”…How and why did the ABA allow this to happen. Isn't the purpose of the ABA is to protect the profession? Why aren’t there droves of recent law grads protesting outside of their law schools?
Last edited by falcon910; 02-21-2012 at 01:23 AM..
Thanks to those of you who sent me “private messages” in response to my last post. Although I appreciate the input, I think it would be better to do so on the public forum for all to benefit.
Having said that, after reflection and the rereading of my last post, I think perhaps “the tone” of it was not what I intended. I was not criticizing FCS‘06GRAD or any other law school grads on here. Nor was I trying to pile up onto an already miserable situation. The attorney friends I have are smart, compassionate and otherwise hard working people who just find themselves in an insufferable position.
My questions were rhetorical. Just like many were asking after the Enron, AIG, Fannie Mae. Freddie Mac, and the Bernie Madoff scandals, despite all the red flags and whistleblowers trying to sound the alarm beforehand, I am only seeking answers on how and why this was allowed to happen.
The misery out there for attorneys is palpable. I have talked to attorneys, read the blogs, and seen all the articles in most major newspapers. Attorneys, especially those who went to a 4th tiered school and borrowed money to do it, are living a poor bohemian lifestyle. Living like poor college kids eating roman noodles and living out of their parent’s basement. The carnage is massive and I sometimes think it would be in my best interest to just look away and carry on with my own pursuits. (Did I mention the Chicago trip for work next month? All on my employer’s dime? Oh, but I digress)
Notwithstanding, like a horrific train wreck with bodies strewn everywhere, I can’t seem to take my eyes off of it.
I guess the only thing that confounds me is that if the law schools are truly using false statistics to trick students into attending and financially destroying so many, then why hasn’t there been more action by those who fell victim to it? Yes, I am aware of some of the law suits that were recently filed, but those suits represent only a small proportion of those who were screwed. I believe the class action against FCSL has only 5 former grads as listed plaintiffs. What about the hundreds of others?
If a bunch of listless, degenerates, and sometimes drug abusers can organize and protest for the “Occupy Wall street movement”, then why can’t some of the most brightest and articulate people of our society do so? This is directed to any of you recent law grads who are reading this. If I was in your position, I would be holding lawful and peaceful demonstrations outside of my alma mater. If you did that at orientation time when the law schools were trying to lure new students in, your head would spin on how fast things might change. In fact, the schools might round you up and offer you a quick cash settlement for you to just go away. But instead, it seems most of you just complain, stumble away into the abyss and just carry on like nothing has happened. Meanwhile your financial lives have all but been destroyed.
Like cops who run toward gun fire and firefighters who are the first to run inside a burning building, I would think lawyers would be the first to fight and take on such a nefarious injustice.
I will try to answer your questions, but please understand that this is a very complex issue, and that I can only offer my own opinions and experiences:
The only thing that an attorney really has is his or her reputation. Bashing your own law school is akin to shooting yourself in the foot. All of us from FCSL are struggling to find our way in the world. We have this degree forever. The school did not steal $250K from us, we bought in. We dug in and scrapped our way to the bar, and in the process we were changed by the process. We mortgaged our lives for it, and we came out on the other side of it different people; new attorneys. There is no way to divorce yourself from your law school. Exposure of the problem may lead to positive change, but that exposure will simultaneoulsy work against each graduate of the school in a very negative way.
Imagine yourself as someone facing a serious legal issue. It would be natural for you to want to learn something about the attorney that you were considering to hire. If you were googling the name of one of them and a lawsuit popped up showing that he/she was suing his own law school because he could not find a job anywhere and that he was destitute because of it, would'nt that be a bit of a turn off? Imagine that you are a law firm seeking to hire an associate and the same thing happened. Out of a pool of ten applicants, is that the guy that you would hire? We are reluctant to speak up because the only thing that we have as attorneys is our reputaion. When we bash FCSL we are bashing our own reputations as attormeys, thus making our plight that much more difficult. More graduates aren't speaking up because they havent yet realized the depth of their problem. As I said, I graduated from FCSL in 2006. My student loans only went into default in 2011. My loans came due in 2007, and I dutifully made payments on them for fourteen months ($1,270.). When I could not do that any longer I contacted my lenders and put my loans into "deferrment". When my deferrment ran out I put them into "forebearance". All told, you are allowed about three years worth of these grace periods over the life of the loans. All the while, interest and penalties keep getting tacked on...and on...and on. In the meantime you keep fighting, keep scrapping, and hoping that things will get better. Eventually the loans go into default. The lawsuits follow. I origionally borrowed $130K to attend FCSL. Now I owe closer to $300K. The debt is absolutely non-dischargable in bankruptcy. 2006 graduates are just now defaulting on their student loans. The students who are enrollng at FCSL now have several years of agony ahead of them before the dam breaks and they realize the depth of their problem.
I would do anything to get the message out that Florida Coastal School of Law is a very, very, bad idea to anyone who might be giving it some thought. Other graduates are likely reluctant for the reasons stated above.
TriMT7, I am not sure what the Florida Bar news is, but I will pass it along to her…
Even if they are hiring, the problem is that according the article below, there are 100 working attorneys competing for every 1 law job. That is staggering. No wonder my lawyer friends can’t find jobs.
I remember when I graduated college, my circle of friends were at a crossroads. I remember being jealous of my friends who got into law school thinking that down the road their future would be bright. I took a different route and thought I was selling my future short.
I went into the IT field and have had a 100k job for the past 5 years. I often get at least one call a month from a “headhunter” trying to lure me away for a even higher paying job. I have traveled all over the country for my job. I just got back from a work conference in San Francisco on my employers dime. I am living the dream, yet reverse about 10 years ago and I thought I was the guy selling my future short.
My friends who went to law school were the ones that were supposed to be living my life. Instead, they are in the depths of hell and living a life of abject poverty. Their dream has turned into a living nightmare.
The Florida Bar News is a little newspaper that the Florida Bar sends to all Florida Bar members (I think twice a month - I rarely look at it). It has a "classifieds section".
I think too many people in college or grad school don't look at what's going on now - or what might be 5-10 years down the road. When my husband and I were in Harvard Law School - it cost peanuts - tuition in our last year (1971) was $1750. And neither of us was afraid to take menial jobs during the school year or over the summer (barkeeper/secretary/I even played in a really lame rock band and my husband worked on the Ford Motor Company assembly line) to pay part/all of our costs. My parents paid for most of my costs - and I put most of what I earned in the bank. And my husband (whose parents didn't have as much money as mine did) was able to graduate only $500 in debt to his parents.
And although the market for lawyers then might not have been booming (we got admitted to practice just before the Big Recession in 1973-74 - jobs were available. And there were all kinds of unexplored frontiers. Like Florida. When both of us finally wound up in Miami in 1973 - there were only about 15k lawyers in the state. Now there are 80k+. We certainly weren't making a lot of money when we started out - but COL was a lot lower then. And we didn't have to deal with debt.
If I were young today - I probably wouldn't become a lawyer - except perhaps a tax lawyer - patent lawyer - IP lawyer (I have a great tolerance for tedious stuff). Then again - when I became a lawyer almost 40 years ago - I really wanted to be a doctor. But was dissuaded from doing so in college ("women have to get married and their husbands won't tolerate their schedules during medical/post-medical school training"). Which was probably kind of correct back then - ultimately wrong from a social POV. OTOH - although the reason I was given then was wrong - the advice wasn't. I have one brother who's a doctor - and he recently quit the clinical practice of medicine to work for a big pharma company because the clinical practice of medicine is - in many specialties - even worse than being a lawyer today. Robyn
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and my husband worked on the Ford Motor Company assembly line) to pay part/all of our costs. My parents paid for most of my costs - and I put most of what I earned in the bank. And my husband (whose parents didn't have as much money as mine did) was able to graduate only $500 in debt to his parents.
