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Hmm, you're kind of showing your ignorance with this one, Robyn. I'm not gonna hit you with a ton of links that you'll never click on, but even I know there are several small markets scattered around the neighborhood & a Winn-Dixie off of Liberty (just below 1st, so I guess technically it's downtown, but its right there). Anyways, San Marco doesn't even have a big grocery either & its well established (yes, I know about the Publix there that's taking forever to start construction on. wake me up when it actually gets built).
Also several (good) tennis courts & yes, a cafe (Three Layers). I'd put it against about any "big city cafe" out there. And it's DEF the best thing Jax has ever seen in this regard. But yes, there's only one REAL cafe here (all those others listed above me are restaurants & ice cream/candy shops, thats not a cafe), but like I said, the one they do have is a doozy.
I agree with you on a lot of your points, but I'm just saying. It would probably help your case if you actually knew what you were talking about & visited the place once in a while instead of going by what you read online or by a select few here. Go check it out if you can drag yourself outta the gated communities & golf courses. I promise you'll live.
And no offense to anyone, but Jax has nothing even remotely close to a Greenwich Village. Night & day.
Yup - I do get there once in a while (to San Marco and Riverside a lot more often). But really - what does it matter what I do? Or even what I say? I have zero influence compared to - say - the Florida Times Union. Which is running a series of articles about Grand Park. Of course - we all know that Grand Park isn't HISTORIC SPRINGFIELD. But if you don't know your way around the area - or don't program your GPS to avoid Grand Park - well it's just a hop/skip/jump from there to there.
Or maybe 5 years from now - your kids could wind up being assigned to a school in/near Grand Park - or taken on a bus to who knows where? I think the issue of school desegregation is very much not a dead issue in the south - especially as schools become more and more segregated as a result of white flight into suburbs - increasing use of private schools by white students - and an increasing perception that magnet schools are not a benefit to the poor minority students in whose districts they're frequently located. My crystal ball is certainly hazy on this. But if I had a 6 month old - I wouldn't count on anything when it came time for that child to attend school.
The clearest evidence to me that people in HISTORIC SPRINGFIELD know they are in the middle of a somewhat crummy area of JAX is the lengths to which they go in trying to separate themselves from their immediate neighbors - e.g.:
(Note that I was incorrect - they're not SPAR forums - they're myspringfield.org forums - never really looked at the name before.)
And to me - an obvious plan in terms of long term thinking would be to try to expand what's good about Springfield into adjoining neighborhoods - not to act as if it were some kind of high class gated community surrounded by BAD AREAS that it has nothing to do with. That's how communities get better - block by block. Not by drawing lines around an area - and saying we're great - and everything else around us isn't. It isn't a neat easy or continuous process. But it's a plan (and I'm sure there are others that make more sense than the "circle our wagons" plan).
BTW - how many occupied houses are actually in HISTORIC SPRINGFIELD? There's a lot of data on City-Data - but not this statistic:
One reason I can't take all the talk (and there is an awful lot of talk here about Springfield compared to the rest of the city/metro area) all that seriously is I think there are more houses in my HOA than in HS - and more cafes and ice cream shops and the like in the shopping centers in the immediate area (I don't consider the latter a big selling point). The same is probably true for other HOAs in the metro area.
Finally - I don't believe in "wars of links". I've always said that people thinking of moving to the metro area in general - or a specific neighborhood in the metro area - should - if at all possible - take it for a test drive first. Neighborhood cheerleaders and brokers in all areas are frequently sources of pretty inaccurate or sometimes downright misleading information. Robyn
Can we get beyond the issue of whether or not certain areas here are "urban"? You'll never be able to convince anyone who's lived in a big city that places like Riverside and Springfield are urban. Moreover - labels really aren't important (at least IMO - although there are certain people who seem to thrive on them). What's in a place is there - for anyone to see - so he or she can draw his/her own conclusions.
And I don't see why development should be based on the happenstance that particular parcels of land are vacant. A lot of vacant land is on "leftover lanes" - unattractive parcels that many have passed by for good reason. Development should be more logical than building on land simply for the reason that it's vacant.
Well I live in a 40 floor building in the center of a 5.5 million person metro and I have visited and spent time in (and even lived in) much bigger cities and I consider parts of Jacksonville urban. They are not North Shore Chicago (where my mom is from) and they are not Philadelphia (where my dad's family's from), but many parts of our core exceed 5,000 people per square mile, which is dense by most anyone's standards, and certainly for the south. I think you're being a "city snob" here, lol.
Also, I don't think you know enough about development. My dad is a developer (before the economy hit lol) and I interned for a real estate investment/development company this summer (it's the field I want to go in, I just took a test at Emory for real estate financial modeling). Judging by your response you don't know about infill development here in Jax, because most infill developments that have been proposed or built have been on vacant land. It is cheaper than spending time to purchase and assemble individual plots with buildings already on them, tear those buildings down, remediate the site, apply for variances (if it was single family R1 before, it is most likely not zoned for higher density or other uses), go before several design approval committees and local economic development committees (JEDC would be one here), and then apply for building permits. It's much easier to redevelop an aging apartment complex (there are several along the riverfront in Riverside and Avondale and San Marco) or build new on vacant land already zoned and primed for higher intensity uses. Our historic districts make it even harder to demolish existing homes, so that makes it even easier to decide to go vacant or redevelop existing.
Bottom line is that there are TONS of vacant parcels and redevelopment opportunities in the core without necessitating destruction (and all too often in every city when a developer does try to clear parcels and build from scratch the financing falls through or approval is not gained, and so what once was an occupied parcel is now empty and a blight on the area).
More proof you are just talking out your ass. SPAR doesn't have any forums. You really need to update your argument. Like I said, further proof you are just talking to hear yourself. As I see from what other people say and the Direct Messages I have received, nobody is giving you the time anymore. It's ok Robyn if you don't have an opinion on everything, you don't have to. Remember your own words "the lady doth protest too much"
In this already much too long thread - these 3 messages are about me. Not about JAX. Don't you thnk that's a little silly? Talk about JAX - not me And I got SPAR mixed up with myspringfield.org - so what?
And you know what would be nice. If some of you Spingfield people would - at least once in a while - give the people who ask questions here a little help (I'm sure some of you do - and I apologize to those people for this generalization). And talk about something other than Springfield. You're all so hip and urban and whatever - people like me think you'd be able to do something useful like recommending a dentist. Instead - you just lurked here and made fun of my messages elsewhere while not lifting a finger to answer a question you might be able to answer here. I mean we get it already. You think Springfield's the next coming of Paris . Let's go forward from there.
And grow up. I don't care who you get DMs from - and won't discuss those I get with you. So let's just leave it at that.
And yes - I am busy getting ready for the holidays - aren't you (or do you let your wife and/or other family members and/or the hired help handle everything?). My husband and I work shoulder to shoulder - yesterday we did windows. We're both tired. Robyn
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Springfield is the "Best Place on Earth" or some kind of "eutopia" but I do think it gets a bad rap. Springfield definitely isn't for everyone and that's fine. Like I tell my wife, I'm not going to try to convince someone to move to the neighborhood because I don't want someone to "have" to be convinced to move here because that means they just "don't get it" but when misinformation is given out, I will speak up. I'm willing to be that Robyn hasn't actually ventured into the neighborhood and driven around recently and that's sad that she is giving out information as if she has. I would never speak up on WGV or Ponte Vedra because I don't actually go there. Robyn, I know you are going to go on and on about how you have lived everywhere, built here, built there, know the purpose of life. But honestly, you don't know Springfield. Please leave that to the people who have lived here, live here now, or spend time there. They are the ones with a more updated pulse on the neighborhood and can give up to date information out. We don't need your stereotypes being pushed out here. You don't have to have an input on everything.
Nope - I don't know the purpose of life. But I do know how to spell "utopia". "Eutopia" - "Euuuu-topia" - that's funny if you say it right.
And how can you compare neighborhoods in the metro JAX area if you *never* go to some of those you're trying to compare (or are you not trying to compare - but only "tooting your own horn"?). I will admit I once wound up in Grand Park - but only by mistake after leaving Shands one day (actually didn't know I was in Grand Park until I read the FTU article today - neighborhoods don't have color-coded ropes). Have been around Springfield more often (like to go to the Karpeles Manuscript Library - and no I haven't checked the map to see if it's in HISTORIC SPRINGFIELD - or Springfield - or any other part of that area that HISTORIC SPRINGFIELD tries to diistance itself from - I just wanted to go there and see what was there).
And many other parts of the metro area a lot more often. Was on Baymeadows near San Jose today - Goodby's Creek area - and saw what I think was a new mid-rise condo going up on Goodby's Creek. The kind of thing that should be closer to downtown - and not forced into a pretty much suburban area because it's not acceptable closer to downtown.
When I look at what I write here - my goal is to give people information - whatever I might have about an area (more or less and sometimes none in various cases). Different people are looking for different things. Some might be looking for tennis (and - in most cases in the south - that's organized competitive league tennis - not playground tennis). Or golf. Or certain religious groups. Or shopping. Or schools. Or proximity to work (and short commuting times). Some people want new houses - some people want to rehab older ones. Some want to buy. Some want to rent. Some want single family - some want multi-family. (And there are many different prices ranges as well.) Some people are used to driving a lot (being from Miami - I'm in that category). Some don't even have cars.
Without looking it up - I recall your saying that you're a native of JAX. So instead of narrowing your focus to only where you live - and beating the drum for it - why don't you expand your vision to everything here - and trying to give people some decent advice. I don't think any person can ever be 100% objective - but that doesn't mean we have to be "Johnny One Notes". Robyn
Responses in quote. Picture is mine from last year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55
And many other parts of the metro area a lot more often. Was on Baymeadows near San Jose today - Goodby's Creek area - and saw what I think was a new mid-rise condo going up on Goodby's Creek. The kind of thing that should be closer to downtown - and not forced into a pretty much suburban area because it's not acceptable closer to downtown.
Have to disagree with you here. This development has long been on hold. It is a series of 4 Faux Mediterranean mid-rise condos that have been foreclosed on by Silverton Bank, the senior lender (this bank also failed...being a community bank it had no business financing a project like this in the first place). They were designed as suburban condos with unattached parking and seclusion from the street. If they were designed for the core, they most likely would be combined into just one or two buildings, feature a different exterior design and different smaller floorplans, an attached garage, and it would have abutted the street to promote streetside activity. Picture below.
When I look at what I write here - my goal is to give people information - whatever I might have about an area (more or less and sometimes none in various cases). Different people are looking for different things. Some might be looking for tennis (and - in most cases in the south - that's organized competitive league tennis - not playground tennis). Or golf. Or certain religious groups. Or shopping. Or schools. Or proximity to work (and short commuting times). Some people want new houses - some people want to rehab older ones. Some want to buy. Some want to rent. Some want single family - some want multi-family. (And there are many different prices ranges as well.) Some people are used to driving a lot (being from Miami - I'm in that category). Some don't even have cars.
I agree with you here. There has to be something for everyone, but I believe we can still produce something for everyone, but with much better planning and better design standards. Well planned areas have a mix of uses, a mix of housing prices, and standard amenities which should often include public transit options. I do think a certain level of density must be maintained in the core, though. I also think the CBD should be the focal point of the region to maintain an identity and promote economic ties and I also think there should be a limit to how much and what kind of sprawl is permitted within an urbanized metropolitan area. Atlanta sprawls throughout 24 counties now (its MSA) and it suffers immensely because of it now (losing jobs and growth and facing transportation hurdles and hurdles handling resources).
In this already much too long thread - these 3 messages are about me. Not about JAX. Don't you thnk that's a little silly? Talk about JAX - not me And I got SPAR mixed up with myspringfield.org - so what?
And you know what would be nice. If some of you Spingfield people would - at least once in a while - give the people who ask questions here a little help (I'm sure some of you do - and I apologize to those people for this generalization). And talk about something other than Springfield. You're all so hip and urban and whatever - people like me think you'd be able to do something useful like recommending a dentist. Instead - you just lurked here and made fun of my messages elsewhere while not lifting a finger to answer a question you might be able to answer here. I mean we get it already. You think Springfield's the next coming of Paris . Let's go forward from there.
And grow up. I don't care who you get DMs from - and won't discuss those I get with you. So let's just leave it at that.
And yes - I am busy getting ready for the holidays - aren't you (or do you let your wife and/or other family members and/or the hired help handle everything?). My husband and I work shoulder to shoulder - yesterday we did windows. We're both tired. Robyn
Robyn, Robyn, Robyn...you are so silly! First off, there is a difference between SPAR forums and myspringfield.org. It's like saying it is the same if someone asks for a link to the whitehouse webpage and you give them foxnews.com. One is the official and the other is just a forum where everyone talks ****.
Concerning helping everyone out: Unlike you, I don't feel the need to give out a suggestion for a dentist if I haven't found one that I like myself. And when I do have something to share, most of the time, I hit them up in private. But thanks for thinking you know what I do in my spare time. As far as me and my wife, we don't let the windows get so bad that we BOTH have to spend an entire day to clean them and then are worn out. We tend to stay on top of things and don't let them get out of control.
So in the past couple of posts you stated you read the SPAR forums, there are no tennis courts and there are no public pools in Historic Springfield. And as myself and several others have stated, you are wrong. Can you at least admit that? Or are you just going to go on another rant about something else you have no idea about?
Last edited by WilliamGriffin; 11-14-2010 at 10:00 PM..
Nope - I don't know the purpose of life. But I do know how to spell "utopia". "Eutopia" - "Euuuu-topia" - that's funny if you say it right.
And how can you compare neighborhoods in the metro JAX area if you *never* go to some of those you're trying to compare (or are you not trying to compare - but only "tooting your own horn"?). I will admit I once wound up in Grand Park - but only by mistake after leaving Shands one day (actually didn't know I was in Grand Park until I read the FTU article today - neighborhoods don't have color-coded ropes). Have been around Springfield more often (like to go to the Karpeles Manuscript Library - and no I haven't checked the map to see if it's in HISTORIC SPRINGFIELD - or Springfield - or any other part of that area that HISTORIC SPRINGFIELD tries to diistance itself from - I just wanted to go there and see what was there).
And many other parts of the metro area a lot more often. Was on Baymeadows near San Jose today - Goodby's Creek area - and saw what I think was a new mid-rise condo going up on Goodby's Creek. The kind of thing that should be closer to downtown - and not forced into a pretty much suburban area because it's not acceptable closer to downtown.
When I look at what I write here - my goal is to give people information - whatever I might have about an area (more or less and sometimes none in various cases). Different people are looking for different things. Some might be looking for tennis (and - in most cases in the south - that's organized competitive league tennis - not playground tennis). Or golf. Or certain religious groups. Or shopping. Or schools. Or proximity to work (and short commuting times). Some people want new houses - some people want to rehab older ones. Some want to buy. Some want to rent. Some want single family - some want multi-family. (And there are many different prices ranges as well.) Some people are used to driving a lot (being from Miami - I'm in that category). Some don't even have cars.
Without looking it up - I recall your saying that you're a native of JAX. So instead of narrowing your focus to only where you live - and beating the drum for it - why don't you expand your vision to everything here - and trying to give people some decent advice. I don't think any person can ever be 100% objective - but that doesn't mean we have to be "Johnny One Notes". Robyn
ZING!!!!!!!! You got me!!!! I bet when you saw that, you were so giddy with yourself. Probably nudged your husband (the one you work shoulder to shoulder with) and whispered "watch this, I got him". LOL. Such a life you have.
Nobody asked about "professional tennis courts" you just made a statement that there were no tennis courts.....and once again....you were WRONG!
And as far as me "beating the drum" about my neighborhood, do you actually read the posts you are replying to? I wasn't beating the drum. I wasn't pumping it up. You made a statement that a couple things didn't exist in the neighborhood and THEY DO. That is all I was doing. Correcting an UNINFORMED person who was spouting off information that was wrong. That is all. And if you read them again, you will see where I stated that it wasn't the best place, it wasn't for everyone, it just gets a bad rap. Am I wrong? I'm sure you will be too "busy" to go back and look it up and then come back in here and admit you were wrong. But that's what you do, keep trucking along.
I must say I enjoy the pride you uptowners are taking in Springfield....Its both impressive & sexy.
Robyn?? Whats the deal? I mean you live in Jax right? Why the back & forth with the uptowners? Its not like they have an issue with Ponte Vedra.
That's what I don't get. She is such a busy body. Always has an opinion about stuff when she has nothing to add.
I personally could care less if someone writes something bad about Springfield. What I do care about is when someone is putting out incorrect information such as facilities or what not. Those are hard facts, no opinion involved. Saying "it sucks" or "bunch of trannies live there" is all opinion so I don't care, but when someone just outright lies and states there are no pools, no tennis courts and they get their information from the SPAR forums is just stupid.
Yup - I do get there once in a while (to San Marco and Riverside a lot more often). But really - what does it matter what I do? Or even what I say? I have zero influence compared to - say - the Florida Times Union. Which is running a series of articles about Grand Park. Of course - we all know that Grand Park isn't HISTORIC SPRINGFIELD. But if you don't know your way around the area - or don't program your GPS to avoid Grand Park - well it's just a hop/skip/jump from there to there.
Or maybe 5 years from now - your kids could wind up being assigned to a school in/near Grand Park - or taken on a bus to who knows where? I think the issue of school desegregation is very much not a dead issue in the south - especially as schools become more and more segregated as a result of white flight into suburbs - increasing use of private schools by white students - and an increasing perception that magnet schools are not a benefit to the poor minority students in whose districts they're frequently located. My crystal ball is certainly hazy on this. But if I had a 6 month old - I wouldn't count on anything when it came time for that child to attend school.
The clearest evidence to me that people in HISTORIC SPRINGFIELD know they are in the middle of a somewhat crummy area of JAX is the lengths to which they go in trying to separate themselves from their immediate neighbors - e.g.:
(Note that I was incorrect - they're not SPAR forums - they're myspringfield.org forums - never really looked at the name before.)
And to me - an obvious plan in terms of long term thinking would be to try to expand what's good about Springfield into adjoining neighborhoods - not to act as if it were some kind of high class gated community surrounded by BAD AREAS that it has nothing to do with. That's how communities get better - block by block. Not by drawing lines around an area - and saying we're great - and everything else around us isn't. It isn't a neat easy or continuous process. But it's a plan (and I'm sure there are others that make more sense than the "circle our wagons" plan).
BTW - how many occupied houses are actually in HISTORIC SPRINGFIELD? There's a lot of data on City-Data - but not this statistic:
One reason I can't take all the talk (and there is an awful lot of talk here about Springfield compared to the rest of the city/metro area) all that seriously is I think there are more houses in my HOA than in HS - and more cafes and ice cream shops and the like in the shopping centers in the immediate area (I don't consider the latter a big selling point). The same is probably true for other HOAs in the metro area.
Finally - I don't believe in "wars of links". I've always said that people thinking of moving to the metro area in general - or a specific neighborhood in the metro area - should - if at all possible - take it for a test drive first. Neighborhood cheerleaders and brokers in all areas are frequently sources of pretty inaccurate or sometimes downright misleading information. Robyn
Good Lord, what are you blabbering about?? I (and no one else) was talking about schools, neighborhood lines, or Grand Park.
I just said it's obvious you never visit or hang out in the area at all, hence you probably shouldn't be all gung-ho to throw your comments into the mix. Especially if you're trying to make them come off as factual. I mean, its fine if you wanna have an opinion & all, but even then it's hard to have a somewhat accurate opinion on a place you never even see.
I don't understand what's so difficult about that.
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