U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Florida > Jacksonville
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
 
Old 07-05-2010, 11:22 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,113 posts, read 2,937,167 times
Reputation: 814
Re:

Ellen Dunham Jones is awesome, I have seen her at Tech (my school) and ULI Atlanta and I am so happy she came here. New urbanism in Atlanta has really caught on. We actually have way more regulation on growth/sprawl here than Atlanta, but Atlanta has almost 6 million people, public transportation, and big time traffic that make it easy for more people to want to live closer in.

I currently live in a 40 floor building in Midtown Atlanta and have lived in buildings such as it for 4 years now, and I have certainly had to deal with bad neighbors (like a thug who beats women 24/7 very loudly above me, security cannot deal with him anymore and the cops have helped, but it is a difficult situation), but I know that you can have bad neighbors in a house, too. A city does not need to be composed of tall residential high rises and hotels to be considered urban. Garden homes, townhomes, duplexes, and quadplexes can be incorporated so there is less crowding, more variation, still enough density to promote walkability, and less chances of dealing with pesky neighbors.

BTW my parents lived in Miami, my mom in a house and then a condo in the Grove, and my dad lived in the Atlantis on Brickell after it opened until 87 or 88. I love many parts of South FL, especially south and SW Miami (CG and the Grove and downtown Kendall), but many areas which have high rise condos are still actually sprawl to me since there is no connectivity, the condos are all monotonous, and they are gated/walled off from the street. It is very dense sprawl (all white condos in S FL and all brick condos that often look like section 8 in Toronto, heh). I do think the areas I mentioned that I really like in Miami have a pretty good mix of houses, townhomes, and condos, and there are many walkable districts, the only thing lacking is a better rail system (Metro stinks, though Metromover is good).

Hurricane Dora was a strong Cat 2 (110 mph) and did a good bit of damage according to pictures I have seen and accounts I have read or heard mainly from my dad who was here. My house stood through it very soundly and it is on the river, which can get just about as windy as at the beach since the St. Johns is so wide and there are no obstacles to slow the wind. But yea, Jax is pretty lucky in overall history because even before Dora it was something like once every 20 or 30 years before we were hit. And I bet Andrew was pretty crazy if you were in Miami or south, I can't even imagine.

I also agree Old PVB is like that, I just mentioned Ortega off the cuff, but of course there are plenty of neighborhoods with that special amenity. Jax is blessed to have more than many cities its size, imo, Avondale, Riverside, San Marco, San Jose, Lakewood, Beaucler, Mandarin, the beaches... There is something else these neighborhoods all have in common, they are older and they aren't just one gated or otherwise "community/subdivision." Most of them still have a long way to go before they can be considered urban or walkable, however.

The insurance does stink here in FL especially S FL, but it is a FL thing. Added insurance costs in the form of upgrades is not a reflection on older construction necessarily as it is an added FL cost that affects older homes more than newer ones more often.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-06-2010, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
10,745 posts, read 6,871,002 times
Reputation: 3741
I think you meant that Atlanta has more regulation than JAX - yes? Hard to believe that Atlanta has any regulation (not that ours is anything to write home about)!

Atlanta metropolitan area - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I like mid-town Atlanta (that's where I stay when I visit Atlanta). It is somewhat walkable in certain areas. But you really need a car to get around.

I looked at the Ms. Jones video linked above. Some good ideas. Main problem these days is money (both from governments and the private sector). Perhaps in the next economic expansion...

We used to live in Coconut Grove - and it was walkable only for recreational purposes. You needed a car to do most things.

Re Dora - It was a cat 2 - but didn't make landfall in Jax (eye went through St. Augustine about where the factory outlet malls are on route 16 - about 25-30 miles south of Jax). Best I can figure out - maximum winds in most of Jax were perhaps 85 mph (weak cat 1):

Hurricanes: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly - Weather News Story - WJXT Jacksonville (http://www.news4jax.com/weather/3642837/detail.html - broken link)

Most damage in the general area was out at the beaches in the region - mostly from the surf - although there was flooding in other areas of Jax as a result of all the rain. Only reason this matters at all is older houses (or newer houses for that matter) in Jax have not really gone through anything resembling a bad hurricane. I've gone through several strong tropical storms since I moved here (sustained 60-70 mph winds - a few gusts in the 80's) - but no hurricanes. Note that after seeing what Andrew did in south Dade - I think construction can make a big difference up to about a cat 3 (Andrew hit our place as a cat 3). Once a storm gets to a 4 or 5 (which is what Andrew was to the south of us) - all bets are off. Even at our place - the winds were strong enough to rip metal balcony railings right out of the concrete balconies. Units in our building that didn't have hurricane shutters were blown to bits. And in the condo we used to own on Key Biscayne - 10 miles south of CG - wind pulled metal shutters right off the sides of the building - and there was nothing at all left inside - no furniture - no appliances - no walls. A strong tropical storm can be a little frightening - but until you see the damage caused by something like Andrew - it's really hard to relate to.

I'm not sure why "walkable" or "urbanism" are such hot concepts these days. Especially when I see some silly examples of them - like Seaside in the Panhandle. The question isn't only whether you can walk - but what can you walk to? And although Seaside is touted as an example of "New Urbanism" - I don't see anything remotely urban about it. Even in a city like New York - which no one doubts is walkable or urban - almost everyone I know who lives there has a car (or - like my elderly aunt - uses a car service). Because - when you get to a certain age - you don't want to to lug all your shopping home in a wire shopping cart (I didn't even like doing it 40 years ago). Or you don't want to take public transit from the UES to the botanical gardens in the Bronx (something we did with friends last time we were there). Moreover - even if my local service places were within walking distance (like within 1/2 mile - as opposed to the 1-2 miles they are today) - there is no virtue in having the ice cream you bought melt in the August heat before you get it home - or bringing home your dry cleaning and getting caught in a summer thunderstorm. That's what used to happen when I lived in center city Philadelphia. I did enjoy walking to work. I absolutely love walking around dense cities like Tokyo when I travel. But as for getting shopping chores done - walking doesn't cut it.

As an aside about old PVB - the one idiotic thing about it was it didn't have sewers until pretty recently. And - even then - it put in - I forget what they're called - these dinky little personal grinders instead of a real sewer system. I think all houses in Florida - unless they're in rural areas - should be required to have sewers. I think the operative word in old PVB is "old". A lot of the residents are older. And they somehow think they have the right to live in expensive houses and not deal with their sewage appropriately (as do many other people in the metro area who live in older places that are pretty expensive). That is one point in favor of newer developments. They do have contemporary waste disposal systems - ones that don't pollute our waterways and groundwater.

BTW - one thing I think we can agree about is the concept of "in-fill". IOW - instead of expanding endlessly at the periphery and discarding closer-in neighborhoods when they "go bad" - trying to do something with those declining neighborhoods. And let's forget about downtown Jax for a while. What about a neighborhood like Arlington? Which was one of the first suburbs here. And which was still pretty much ok 15 years ago when we moved here. But which isn't so nice these days. What kinds of things would you do to stem its decline - and attempt to revive it? As much as Ms. Jones might think so - I don't think redoing the Regency Mall into something that looks like the Town Center would do the trick. Robyn

P.S. There was an op-ed piece in today's WSJ about city versus suburban living - and peoples' preferences. If you don't have a WSJ subscription (perhaps it's free content - you can check) - DM me with your email and I'll send you a link.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-06-2010, 05:21 PM
 
Location: Jacksonville, FL
3,482 posts, read 3,997,611 times
Reputation: 811
That would figure.

Robyn doesn't know anyone without a car in NYC, and I don't know anyone with a car in NYC.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-06-2010, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Your Mom's House
1,251 posts, read 2,141,755 times
Reputation: 750
Quote:
Originally Posted by fsu813 View Post
That would figure.

Robyn doesn't know anyone without a car in NYC, and I don't know anyone with a car in NYC.
Neither do I. It's estimated that somewhere between 50%-60% of New Yorkers don't even own a car. And the ones who do, over 60% don't use it to get to work (they walk or take public transit). I guess she's talking about her elitist retired golfing buddies again who can afford to drive everywhere & pay for parking up there. Go figure.

So, yes. Tell us more, dear (cause I know you're going to anyway). If you wanna be honest, it's your car-crazy Baby Boomer generation that sorta got us into the mess we're all in now with being car-reliant, so please tell me why we should all listen to any of your opinions again??

What exactly is your beef with all this anyway? Do you like blighted downtowns that have been left for dead & every suburb in America resembling each other with the same generic looking chain stores, strip malls, etc?? It seems like you feel threatened in some way. No one is trying to take away your lifestyle, your cars, your house in the 'burbs, your, um, golf clubs. OK??
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-06-2010, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
10,745 posts, read 6,871,002 times
Reputation: 3741
All of my friends/family in Manhattan are in the medical or financial or legal professions. They are all in the 50-60's - perhaps a bit older. Don't think they're going to hop on the subway to get to a hospital to do an emergency operation. I just remembered that a niece of mine recently moved to Brooklyn. She is in her early 20's - and doesn't have a car (she can't even afford her apartment - my brother helps her out). You guys seem to have a problem with people who are successful and have money. But - without people like this - NYC would be bankrupt tomorrow (these people pay a *lot* of taxes). As it stands - the state of New York may be bankrupt sometime soon.

I realize things are harder today than in recent years for younger people considering the current economic climate - but no harder than they were for me and my husband when we started working at the start of '73-'74 recession.

You guys seem to have a beef with people who have worked hard all their lives - in school - in their professions - etc. - and wound up with money. I don't intend to debate the point. Will just "govern myself accordingly" in terms of how I live "my" life. You can spend the rest of your life hating people like me and my friends and family - or try to improve your lots in life (which you don't seem especially happy with). On my part - when I look back at the things I did and what I accomplished - I am pretty content. I hope 30 years from now - you can say the same about your own lives. Hate for others is no substitute for a sense of personal fulfillment. Robyn
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-06-2010, 06:19 PM
 
Location: Jacksonville, FL
3,482 posts, read 3,997,611 times
Reputation: 811
I hope "you guys" doesn't include me. I like money. =)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-06-2010, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
10,745 posts, read 6,871,002 times
Reputation: 3741
. The nicest thing about having a few bucks isn't buying toys and the like. It's not having to sweat the big stuff. I'm having surgery at Mayo tomorrow - female type stuff. Even though it isn't big deal surgery - like a liver transplant - I'll blow through my $10k deductible and my $3k co-pay like a knife through butter. But tonight my biggest worry is pre-op prep - and how the surgery will go. Not how to pay the bills. CU in a while. And if I sound silly/stupid when I return - you can blame it on the pain meds! Robyn
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-06-2010, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Your Mom's House
1,251 posts, read 2,141,755 times
Reputation: 750
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55 View Post
All of my friends/family in Manhattan are in the medical or financial or legal professions. They are all in the 50-60's - perhaps a bit older. Don't think they're going to hop on the subway to get to a hospital to do an emergency operation. I just remembered that a niece of mine recently moved to Brooklyn. She is in her early 20's - and doesn't have a car (she can't even afford her apartment - my brother helps her out). You guys seem to have a problem with people who are successful and have money. But - without people like this - NYC would be bankrupt tomorrow (these people pay a *lot* of taxes). As it stands - the state of New York may be bankrupt sometime soon.

I realize things are harder today than in recent years for younger people considering the current economic climate - but no harder than they were for me and my husband when we started working at the start of '73-'74 recession.

You guys seem to have a beef with people who have worked hard all their lives - in school - in their professions - etc. - and wound up with money. I don't intend to debate the point. Will just "govern myself accordingly" in terms of how I live "my" life. You can spend the rest of your life hating people like me and my friends and family - or try to improve your lots in life (which you don't seem especially happy with). On my part - when I look back at the things I did and what I accomplished - I am pretty content. I hope 30 years from now - you can say the same about your own lives. Hate for others is no substitute for a sense of personal fulfillment. Robyn
No offense, but I honestly think you might be a bit delusional. No one mentioned anything about hating you, or success, or money for that matter. So I don't even know how you arrived at that.

The problem, Robyn, is that you seem like you have your circle of retired well-off 60+ year olds that you base all of your arguments off of, or stuff that happened when you were way younger in the 70s. Its just out of touch & isnt reflective of any sort of common reality nowadays. I dont understand why that's so hard for you to realize??

There's no shame in it. Just admit when you don't know about a certain topic & move on. Hell, there's all sorts of things I don't know about. But I don't post on any of those topics because I can't offer anything to them. You don't seem to have that filter.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-07-2010, 08:19 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,113 posts, read 2,937,167 times
Reputation: 814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55 View Post
All of my friends/family in Manhattan are in the medical or financial or legal professions. They are all in the 50-60's - perhaps a bit older. Don't think they're going to hop on the subway to get to a hospital to do an emergency operation. I just remembered that a niece of mine recently moved to Brooklyn. She is in her early 20's - and doesn't have a car (she can't even afford her apartment - my brother helps her out). You guys seem to have a problem with people who are successful and have money. But - without people like this - NYC would be bankrupt tomorrow (these people pay a *lot* of taxes). As it stands - the state of New York may be bankrupt sometime soon.
Well I have to give Robyn credit for this quote...She and I agree on most of it. Too bad there are some very wealthy ultra libs up in NYC that run the political side of things and I suppose feel bad for the money they have worked so hard to make (not always hard in too many cases) and want to give it all up to places like Bedford Stuyvesant (I have a neighbor in Jax who was a major investor in those projects and just lost a ton of money, heh), but not everyone agrees with them and so they are fleeing the city and the state, which happens to be the biggest welfare city/state in the country.

My mom lived in the city for some time, and I really don't know if she had a car, but she did get tired of the subway, especially after someone vomited on her in a crowded car on the way to work. She eventually took the bus, which is more fashionable there than anywhere, I think, and cabs. I also agree it does get tiresome to shop and ride (I do, but only half the time because taking groceries on a subway is actually frowned upon here in Atl and is a hastle). The grocery store I do go to though has 2 highrises on top and another 5-6 within a block or 2 so it is convenient for most people around there just to walk, even more convenient than a car if you are just getting a little.

My parents, who are in the 50-60 range see your points and agree with many, but I have kept them fresh and young. Most of my generation spent much of their childhood driving to various places and stuck in traffic. Mom yelling at the cars ahead while she vans everyone to soccer practice after waiting in carpool line for an hour at the school, then same thing picking the kids up, then she has to drive to the opposite end of the earth to get the kid to piano practice after that, and then there is eventually just as much time spent in the car as actually doing stuff. So my generation grew up differently and prefers to move closer in.

Lastly, I will say this. I have not been through Andrew, but I have plenty of friends and family who went through Andrew, Hugo, Wilma, Charlie, and the list goes on. The damage older homes face is not necessarily from wind or water; it is from trees coming down. In all of these hurricanes, I have noticed that the majority of damage is ironically in the newer construction (or at least pre hurricane shutter construction bc I just know you are going to comment). Heck, visibly in TV I saw that the beachfront homes in Punta Gorda (which are new, but people there can afford better construction that was standard back in the day...concrete block instead of cheap frame wood, etc) were virtually untouched compared to all the inland subdivisions stretching from Arcadia to Orlando. Coral Gables was mostly fine after Andrew except for damage that the Banyans did when they came down. Charleston city was mostly fine after Hugo except for the surge, but all those houses are still there.

I am starting to get tired of the debate, which is interesting, but I'll part from this with a few observations. Public transportation IS expensive, but so is road construction to support sprawl. I personally think having a little bit of bedroom community-ness is not a bad thing, but as you guys may know, we are going to build an outer-outer beltway here in Jax that may or may not be tolled. Do we really need to be that far out? I also notice just here in Atlanta (and I swear I am not making this up) that the healthiest people by far are in the city and visibly not in the burbs. They spend less time in traffic and get to know their neighbors much much better than in the burbs and there is higher density so there is more reason, time, and support for activities that promote health and well being. In midtown, there may not be "yards" except for the area East of Juniper, but there are sidewalks and a great park which is always full. Look to Memorial Park in Riverside for an idea of how to get people out. That is really the only park in Jax that imho is attractive, kept up, and full of people playing sports or walking around. The further out I go from the city, the more fat people I encounter.

Also, if you are older and beyond the "young and fit" stage, what is there for you to do in the burbs? Jax has the beach, which is unique compared to most places, but a place like Atlanta... If I was a little older, I would still want to look good and remain fit, but I might want to spend more time doing community/cultural things. I may want to live a slower pace life, and have a bit of privacy, but I still would not want to deal with traffic, I would still want to know all of my neighbors, and I still would not want be far from anything. If I was retired, I also would not want to be stuck in a place where only other old retirees were and not have access to younger people/my family. PVB is not quite like that because it has multiple generations and is not isolated from Jax, but a hek of a lot of South FL is and that depresses me.

Bottom line, at the very least, places need good architectural variety, sidewalks, trees and plants, good parks (not a field of grass that barely gets mowed with a playground in 1 corner), public transportation option, a mix of uses (zoning issue), a mix of densities, and a mix of price points. Sounds hard to incorporate all of that within 1/2 sq. mi. but it really is not. Jax and many cities nowadays (but especially Jax) are missing the boat entirely on good architecture, sidewalks (even many older, denser neighborhoods here do not have sidewalks), trees and good plants (in newer communities), and definitely good parks, and definitely public transportation. We have a mix of densities, but not in one single area except for Riverside, and we have a pretty good mix of price points, but we get away with not having virtually any other attribute that can make a crappy neighborhood nice or a decent neighborhood even better. Solving the issue of the most hard of ghettoes in entirely different (and too political) and Moncrief/Myrtle will take a different approach.

And yes, Atlanta has less regulation on overally sprawl than any major metro in FL because we have recently signed into law several bills defining urban areas/metro areas and curbing outward growth. I can dig around and try to pull them up, but they are new and will be good for the cities in this state (hopefully prevent us from becoming quite like Atlanta in the traffic and sprawl reputation it has).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-07-2010, 08:22 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,113 posts, read 2,937,167 times
Reputation: 814
And sorry for the long post, I usually don't read posts that long myself, but this topic interests me and there are too many statements to reply to. I am done with this thread though as it has worn, I think.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2011 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $79,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Florida > Jacksonville

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top