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...Yes, i'm more knowledgeable about those areas than your average joe, per se. Not all opinions are created equal, of course. Some are better informed than others. I don't care for the uniformed.
In Phoenix, at the heart of the foreclosure crisis, "you've seen real devastation in the outer suburbs," Donovan added, while the coming of light rail has "brought real development back to downtown." Donovan is a champion of light rail in cities and high-speed rail between cities. He was in Wisconsin last week to announce a grant that will pay for a long overdue rail link between Milwaukee and Madison.
"Within 30 miles of its five stops, you find 76 percent of the state's population," said Donovan...
Time to pull heads of the sand folks.
Just curious - have you ever set foot in the Phoenix metro area - or the Madison/Milwaukee area (I have family in both places - have gone on visits)? Robyn
Well obviously we have no neighborhoods like the largest cities in the NE or Chicago, LA, San Fran, Seattle, and a few other places, but our original streetcar neighborhoods are comparatively dense relative to most cities (due to grid street pattern, housing units per acre, and overall zoning pattern). They are certainly urban for Jacksonville's and the entire Southeast's standards.
I don't know if you were knocking me for taking pictures of houses and neighborhoods, but frankly anyone can publicly find much more private information on a city or county website about people and their properties than my photos from the public streets/public waterway (and for many of these neighborhoods I personally very well know the owners of those houses and have known them my whole life, their identities were kept hidden though anyone can look them up if they want, also I am sure some homeowners would be prideful in living in a place or home that someone deemed worthy to photograph...I know I would as long as they weren't zooming into my bedroom or taking pictures of my kids, etc).
Agreed that most of the country is catching on to growth plans (developed by MPOs) that focus on central core areas and corridors of employment. In Jax's case, that would entail all of the neighborhoods we are focused on in this thread AND JTB. When it comes to land use planning, Clay County is perhaps the worst county I have ever studied (they forgot about employment options and have failed to solicit for NEPA transportation projects to alleviate their extremely high uncontrolled growth). Jacksonville's ULI chapter recently did a project enlisting volunteers from around the city to set up different growth patterns for Jax metro and then run scenarios on them. The focused core/corridor plan came out with the best results. It limits future suburban/exurban land resulting in more preserved land, but it doesn't limit new development just to the 15 central square miles, which would result in overcrowding.
jsimm your wasting your typing energy. u can talk till blue in the face and it still wont get u anywehere. shes a expert or so she thinks. shell find something to be critical of thats for sure.
one correction example. there are 2, not 1,movie theatres near downtown. san marco and riverside.
and talking about taking head out of the sand. 2 major statistcal studies were linked and all somebody can say is that they are wrong bc of the st. johns towncenter and nocatee? man how our educational system has failed us. nocatee is 75% behind schedule last i heard and good luck forming a neighborhood around a shopping mall. wow.
this reminds me of cat people and dog people. there are both kinds of people that think one is better and thats cool but ultimiately more people do like dogs and theres no getting around that. thats what this reminds me of. peopkle can have opinions but when links are given to good info that speaks for itself. ex Dogs vs Cats: Who do Americans Like More? | Dog & Cat Health, Wellness, Products and Breed Information
Well, I can only speak for myself & I dont know what Robyn's deal is (and frankly Im done trying to figure it out). But my issue with this whole thing is that I don't doubt for a second that urbanism is moving forward & that there is def a swing in that direction (and thank GOD!). I just dont see it here in Jax. And I haven't for the entire time I've lived here (going 4 years). I mean, what are you guys seeing that I'm not?? Because I spend all of my time in these areas (seriously, I don't go anywhere else in town ever unless I have to).
Yes, I know about all those projects listed. But a fountain & some street renovations does not an urban environment make. So to link to a bunch of stuff from Seattle, Texas, etc & then try to someone equate that with stuff here in Jax while mentioning those meager local projects is just, well, grasping for straws IMHO.
Listen, I'd love to see it happen here. But we can mention all of these small projects all we want. If the city officials, planners, Mayor, etc arent behind this & making a REAL push (and I mean a damn push guys, like you know, ACTUALLY breaking ground on stuff & not just flapping their gums in the media), then it doesnt mean anything. Jax residents of all people should know how much these guys like to dick around & not get anything done.
And even if they did, it would take years (and I mean decades) to get to anything decent that you could actually call "urban". We're so behind on this & so screwed ourselves with some of these half-assed projects (Skyway) that its not even funny.
P.S. I'm sorry, not being negative, & I appreciate the enthusiasm & know you gotta start somewhere (crawl before you walk), but remember where you are & what kind of town you're living in. Be realistic about this.
Most of the mayoral candidates ARE serious about downtown unlike any mayors we have seen for decades (some a couple decades ago were serious about downtown, but ended up hurting downtown more than helping it because of their ill informed decisions to raze half of downtown). A vote for Audrey Moran, Jim Bailey (I think he's out now though), Rick Mullaney, and even Glorious Johnson (though she has no chance realistically) = a vote to propel our city into a more progressive, competitive track whereby downtown and surrounding areas are not forgotten.
By the way in my urban transportation class today we discussed subsidies. Most people don't think of highways and arterial roads as being subsidized, but don't even get me started on specifics. It is true that only the best inter-city rail systems achieve a 40% ROIC (return on invested capital) with many systems only achieving half of that, but most roads and highways are only in the 60% range. Let's add 10 lane miles to JTB for oh, let's say $50 million (realistically much more expensive than that, multiple times more expensive). Through our state gas tax we pay for most of that construction depending on which program it is through (if it's NEPA project through one of the TEA bills then it may only be 50% federally funded through DOT with matching funds from state and city). Not everyone in the city will use or benefit from these added lane miles. On top of that, new land/land use capacity will be opened up, immediately adding traffic to these lane miles. The cars add wear to these new lane miles and other lane miles, so the road must be maintained. Highways and roads are just as subsidized as public transportation with limited public use (except for major economic drivers like 95, 10, ports, certain rail lines, etc). If impact fees and environmental impact statements/fees are not set up properly, a developer can come in and depending on zoning/regional plan (which our zoning is **** poor and our regional plan is severely lacking) he can add 1,500 new homes, a couple hundred condos/apartments, a little bit of green space, possibly a school, and get away with adding thousands of people to the built environment without having to pay out of pocket for the increased impact on our roads, schools, overall infrastructure, etc. Events like this happen when suburban highways are built or expanded without planning for what to do with the extra capacity for low density growth.
So in another light, suburbs are fine and dandy to a point, but while they seem so cheap and easy, they add more stress and necessary subsidies to the built environment than 95% of people realize. They are also not environmentally friendly and aren't necessarily safer when pedestrian and highway accidents are taken into account. There has to be a cut off point. Suburbs as we know them only really started developing in 1956 with the Federal Housing Act that gave credits to new homeowners who moved out of the cities. A mushroom cloud formed from there.
Anyone who is opposed to "wealth distribution," "subsidies," and paying for someone else's kids to attend overpriced public schools when your own go to private (etc), should really be in favor of toll roads. Our transportation needs (highways included) far outweigh the tax income our various governments and agencies take in to fund projects to fill these transportation needs. One way to reduce the gap is tolls. If you use the road, you directly pay (just like if you take the train you pay the fare).
Also Robyn55 is not someone who bugs me. She is entitled to her opinion and it isn't what I would call "uninformed," though she is very adamant about her opinions and does not seem willing to budge (maybe due to her age/place in her life which is a credible reason to stick to your ways I suppose). I change my opinions all the time whenever I experience something new or learn something new that alters the way I think about something. I may be young, but I consider myself extremely well travelled and extremely well informed about certain things.
I think Robyn is just at the upper crust of retirement (sitting on some money, not as energetic and apt to be a revolutionary as someone younger, wanting a golf/beach/tennis lifestyle with some travel mixed in, and there is nothing wrong with that and here in FL we can offer that lifestyle). What I don't understand is why she does feel like raining on a parade that she chooses (reasonably so) not to participate in. There is NO denying that nationally there is a move to get back into the city and to implement more sustainable growth. There is NO denying that there is a need for much improved and expanded public transportation. State and federal lawmakers have corrupted the balance of power between MPOs, municipalities, transportation agencies, and state/federal sayso, and they have twiddled their thumbs for 4-5 decades on these issues all whilst hugely expanding welfare programs through deficit spending. These are facts. If you are retired with money and want peace/quiet in a beach gated neighborhood that offers tennis and golf, that's ok, but don't bring the negative attitude to those who can't or choose not to be in your situation and do choose/require for the opposite.
Conclusion
There are several positives in Downtown Jacksonville today, including:
Improvements now underway or planned for Laura Street, the Southbank Riverwalk and Friendship Fountain, aimed at improving the Downtown experience.
The success of First Wednesday Art Walk, Off the Grid Galleries and a renewed interest in arts in Downtown.
An emerging entertainment and nightlife district.
However, despite these initiatives and the spending of $1.1 billion on Downtown during the past ten years, Downtown is, in many ways, at its lowest point in the past 20 years. To continue business as usual is to allow the disintegration of our historic and civic core.
Is everyone afraid to read this report and comment about the facts. Some of us are not being negative, just brave enough to acknowledge the truth about downtown. I would love to see things get better, but come on how long can we wait?
You obviously didn't read the articles I linked, b/c they are not about Texas and Seattle.
Next time read a study before commenting on it.
They are both about NATIONAL trends, the most relevant being preliminary data from the 2010 census just take a few months ago. Can't get anymore accurate data than that, i'd say.
Also, you are right. Downtown hasn't that changed much in 4 years. But 4 years ago there was ZERO vision or leadership to change it, now there's quite a bit, relatively speaking. Jax is fnally catching up to the National trends, as i've stated many times. This is why it's so exiciting......because it's finally turning around.
However, as i've pointed out before, you exagerrate / de-emphasize inappropriately.
A 3 building multi, multi million dollar hotel, restaurant, and high rise is not a "meager project". COJ's head planner creating incentives to focus on infill (thus helping DT) rather than expanding suburbs is not "meager", that's a major, major policy change. Plans for commuter rail and trolley (that will go through DT) is not a "meager project", try many, many millions of dollars. Creating an actual nightlife district of sorts was not a "meager" achievment, and that's something that certainly has changed in the past 4 years, in the last year specifically. Having Mayor canididates speak at length and indepthly about DT, something which hasn't been but a passing priority in years, is a major change in focus and priorities, and tells you what they think is important.
These are all good things that weren't in place 4 years ago, but rather in the last year alone.
JBwitnz,
I think i already spoke to your point. As I've stated many times, the "truth about downtown" is that it's way behind it's peers and lacks what they have, and what people have come to expect from larger cities' downtown's. Is thati what you think people are afraid to "admit"? I've only said that about 1000 times.
BUT - it still has a lot going on, COJ is finally catching on to national trends that make DT a priority rather than a side-issue, there's of a lot of new stuff in development, and it's relatively safe.
Jax is the ka-boose on the national train moving towrds Urban Living, per se. But it's moving, finally.
So does anyone really think that Jacksonville will buck virtually every national trend, signal, and experts and NOT prioritize general "urban living"? Heck, in terms of cost benefits, which you're darn right the COJ cares about, it's the only thing that makes sense.
It's happening one way or another, and 4 years ago you couldn't say that.
My job is on this side of the river. We have 3 people here that live in Avondale and it takes them a good 50 minutes to get to work.
Where do you work? I ask because I grew up in Ortega and it took me ~20 minutes in morning rush hour to get to my high school near Arlington, and even in afternoon traffic took me ~45 minutes to get to the beach via JTB, and that's coming from somewhere that's even slightly further than Avondale. The commute from Avondale to the Southside in the morning is a breeze, and is only slow from about the Atlantic Blvd. entrance onto 95 over the bridge in the afternoon (well and JTB from 95 to about Southside).
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