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Old 08-07-2012, 09:20 AM
 
26,590 posts, read 54,713,149 times
Reputation: 13024

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123 View Post
Here's what I would do:

Required:
A list of what is truely required. If you don't have these, don't bother applying.

Strongly Preferred
A list of what is strongly preferred. Basically, if you don't have these, but somebody else does (and meets the requirements) that other person will get the job.

OR

Preferred (Candidate must have most of the following skills)
And then list them.

OR

Preferred (Candidate must have X out of the following skills) if there is a hard cutoff number.
And then list them.


That should make it more clear, IMHO.
There isn't always a cut off point. Sometimes if the ideal candidate comes along for whatever reason without any of the preferred skills, you'll hire them. It's not a science, it's an art. Big difference.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:21 AM
 
26,590 posts, read 54,713,149 times
Reputation: 13024
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123 View Post
1) I'm not looking to blame anyone for hiring decisions, but I am tired of people posting jobs that don't match what they really want. I've been shot down for interviews for jobs where I met all the requirements, but they wanted me to meet the "preferred" skills as well. If they won't even interview people without the "preferred" skills, than they are requirements - they should be honest about it.

2) In most cases, the "preferred" skills are industry-specific, sometimes even company specific. There is no way to get those skills without first getting a job in the industry... which you often will not be able to get without the skills in question. It used to be that on-the-job training covered that, but companies refuse to invest in their employees these days.

3) While there is no way to be 100% sure if the job is written correctly unless you either get the job or the company rejects you for it and tells you why, when you see a job with almost zero requirements and a mountain of detailed "preferred skills," it is safe to say that the only way you're getting the position without those skills is if basically nobody with them applies. In a good economy, that is possible, but in a dying economy such as this one, with 100+ applicants per job, the odds of even getting an interview for these positions is close to zero if you lack the "preferred" skills.

One could argue that means that the "preferred skills" still are not requirements, but that's like posting a job ad that says, "preferences: must not be a criminal." Okay, yeah... sure... it's possible you'll only get applicants that don't meet that, but let's not kid ourselves - that may as well be a requirement because it is not hard to find applicants that meet it.
Chances are the person they hired did have all the preferred skills. You, by your own admission, did not. So what is your point? that just because you had all of the required skills you were as strong of a candidate as the person with all of those plus the preferred? Surely you jest.
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:14 AM
 
Location: Dallas TX
15,055 posts, read 21,825,096 times
Reputation: 22372
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
Yet you describe Chinese, Hispanics, and Koreans who cannot speak English, I guess they can speak another language besides their own, but why not English then since they are living here? Or is it implied English speakers are suppose to learn everyone else's languages to accommodate them here in the US?

"European countries, most people speak more than one language."

That would be English.
This is argument for another thread. There are areas where people live that everything is in their language, they don't have a need to speak English, so they don't. I am not saying I agree with it, it is a fact.

And yes, in Europe the other language is most likely English, your point? They take the time to learn another language, if not more than one. In the USA if you don't speak English, well too bad. We are a very egocentric country.
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:34 AM
 
9,856 posts, read 13,455,198 times
Reputation: 5453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123 View Post
1) I'm not looking to blame anyone for hiring decisions, but I am tired of people posting jobs that don't match what they really want. I've been shot down for interviews for jobs where I met all the requirements, but they wanted me to meet the "preferred" skills as well. If they won't even interview people without the "preferred" skills, than they are requirements - they should be honest about it.
But this isn't necessarily true. People ARE honest, but what they are looking for is somewhat flexible. Who a person is (personality, likability, drive, work ethic, etc.) is easily 50% of a hiring decision. If a person meets the skills, but they don't have the right personality for the job or the culture of the organization, they won't get an offer.

No one is 'lying', but on the job skills are not the only factor in hiring.

Quote:
2) In most cases, the "preferred" skills are industry-specific, sometimes even company specific. There is no way to get those skills without first getting a job in the industry... which you often will not be able to get without the skills in question. It used to be that on-the-job training covered that, but companies refuse to invest in their employees these days.
Often there are many transferable or comparable skills. After you see the job posting and do a few hours of research into the company, the group offering the job, etc. often people realize they have extremely similar skills. For example, if you say "you asked for someone with experience with the xxx software, however I have four years experience with yyy software, which is IBM's equivalent and here is why it is similar..."

Employers are looking for employees who do that kind of research before an interview.

Quote:
3) While there is no way to be 100% sure if the job is written correctly unless you either get the job or the company rejects you for it and tells you why, when you see a job with almost zero requirements and a mountain of detailed "preferred skills," it is safe to say that the only way you're getting the position without those skills is if basically nobody with them applies. In a good economy, that is possible, but in a dying economy such as this one, with 100+ applicants per job, the odds of even getting an interview for these positions is close to zero if you lack the "preferred" skills.
Again - see my answer to #2. This is why you have to prove why your background is good for the job. This is why you tailor write every single resume to every single job posting, and why you spend hours researching every job before actually talking to someone.

Quote:
One could argue that means that the "preferred skills" still are not requirements, but that's like posting a job ad that says, "preferences: must not be a criminal." Okay, yeah... sure... it's possible you'll only get applicants that don't meet that, but let's not kid ourselves - that may as well be a requirement because it is not hard to find applicants that meet it.
Again, they are not requirements! They are what you would love your ideal employee to have, however things you are willing to compromise for the right person. 99% of the times we turn people down who have the right skills on paper it is because of their attitudes and personalities. If we see someone who exactly matches the job description, however they seem like they wouldn't be a team player, wouldn't be social, would be unwilling to stay late to fix a big problem etc...we won't hire that person and will hire a person with less work experience but a personality that aligns better with the group.
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Old 08-07-2012, 03:37 PM
 
Location: USA
7,478 posts, read 5,811,813 times
Reputation: 12324
Annerk: No need to get offended. All I'm saying is that if something is truly required, say it. Also, in the cases in question, they rejected people for INTERVIEWS because they didn't have the "preferred" skills, which is more than just rejecting people for the job intself. So, it isn't about other candidates - it's about rejecting people because (though they meet the requirements), they don't have the preferred skills... which means the preferred skills are requirements.

hnsq: You're talking about on-site interviews or some system where people can explain how they are good for the job - most unemployed people do not get the chance to explain to anyone why they are good for the position. Most of them are cut off at the knees by the automated resume filters that reject a large number of the applicants automatically. All I'm saying if something is required, say so... and be honest when setting up the rejection criteria for the resume filter systems.
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Old 08-07-2012, 03:39 PM
 
9,856 posts, read 13,455,198 times
Reputation: 5453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123 View Post
Annerk: No need to get offended. All I'm saying is that if something is truly required, say it. Also, in the cases in question, they rejected people for INTERVIEWS because they didn't have the "preferred" skills, which is more than just rejecting people for the job intself. So, it isn't about other candidates - it's about rejecting people because (though they meet the requirements), they don't have the preferred skills... which means the preferred skills are requirements.

hnsq: You're talking about on-site interviews or some system where people can explain how they are good for the job - most unemployed people do not get the chance to explain to anyone why they are good for the position. Most of them are cut off at the knees by the automated resume filters that reject a large number of the applicants automatically. All I'm saying if something is required, say so... and be honest when setting up the rejection criteria for the resume filter systems.
This is exactly what a cover letter is for. Why are you looking for jobs that use automated systems?
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Old 08-07-2012, 03:46 PM
 
Location: USA
7,478 posts, read 5,811,813 times
Reputation: 12324
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
This is exactly what a cover letter is for. Why are you looking for jobs that use automated systems?
Because in the engineering world, virtually every job application requires you submit your resume through an automated system. You can't drive over to Ford, GM, Boeing, etc. and drop off a resume at the front desk. Smaller companies, if you're lucky, will have an email to which you can send a resume and similar information.

I always include a cover letter if the system allows me. Assuming that cover letter is actually read by anyone, however is overly optimistic in this era of brutal resume filters. Oh, sure - if I get past the filters, some manager may read it, but that means nothing if one needs to read the cover letter in the first place to see why my somewhat different background is still applicable to the position in question.

Long story short, I'm not disagreeing with you - I understand that hiring is not an exact science. All I'm saying is be honest. If there's no way in heck you're going to hire somebody who has only 3 out of the 7 "preferred skills," just put a label at the top of the list saying that. It'll save me time from applying if I don't meet the criteria and you time from going through resumes from angry people who think they were qualified.
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Old 08-07-2012, 03:51 PM
 
9,856 posts, read 13,455,198 times
Reputation: 5453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123 View Post
Because in the engineering world, virtually every job application requires you submit your resume through an automated system. You can't drive over to Ford, GM, Boeing, etc. and drop off a resume at the front desk. Smaller companies, if you're lucky, will have an email to which you can send a resume and similar information.

I always include a cover letter if the system allows me. Assuming that cover letter is actually read by anyone, however is overly optimistic in this era of brutal resume filters. Oh, sure - if I get past the filters, some manager may read it, but that means nothing if one needs to read the cover letter in the first place to see why my somewhat different background is still applicable to the position in question.
Which is why so many people advocate networking and getting to know people as avenues to finding a job. Simply submitting a resume without having a contact at a company will almost never get you a job.

Quote:
Long story short, I'm not disagreeing with you - I understand that hiring is not an exact science. All I'm saying is be honest. If there's no way in heck you're going to hire somebody who has only 3 out of the 7 "preferred skills," just put a label at the top of the list saying that. It'll save me time from applying if I don't meet the criteria and you time from going through resumes from angry people who think they were qualified.
And the thing that you refuse to understand is this: most job postings ARE honest. Work on personality, likability, social interaction while at work, etc. Those are the things that will get you a job (yes, even in engineering). I got my start in IT (software engineering), and I had a manger tell me when I was only a few months out of college that 'soft skills' were 60% of what he looked for in a software engineer. Skills can be taught. Finding someone who is easy to get along with, who socializes well with co-workers, etc. is MUCH harder to teach.
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Old 08-07-2012, 03:55 PM
 
Location: USA
7,478 posts, read 5,811,813 times
Reputation: 12324
hnsq: Okay, I'm done wasting my breath on this... All of this talk about "soft skills" and "getting to know people" is wonderful - if you can get an interview. What I've been saying - and what has been constantly ignored - is that none of that does you any good when you're stuck submitting resumes through auto-filtered systems with screwy requirements, which is what the OP's post was about, from what I can tell.
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Old 08-07-2012, 04:00 PM
 
9,856 posts, read 13,455,198 times
Reputation: 5453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123 View Post
hnsq: Okay, I'm done wasting my breath on this... All of this talk about "soft skills" and "getting to know people" is wonderful - if you can get an interview. What I've been saying - and what has been constantly ignored - is that none of that does you any good when you're stuck submitting resumes through auto-filtered systems with screwy requirements, which is what the OP's post was about, from what I can tell.
And there is NO REASON why you should ever be stuck only submitting resumes online. Talk to people. Talk to people in line in a grocery store. Talk to the person sitting at the table next to you at dinner. Talk to people in bars. Talk to people on the train. Get to know as many people as possible and build a network of contacts that can help you get a resume through the door without using an online system!
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