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Old 08-21-2012, 03:40 PM
 
Location: where people are either too stupid to leave or too stuck to move
3,997 posts, read 5,721,928 times
Reputation: 3635

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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNC4Me View Post
Not so. Those invited for an interview have the skills to do the job. The resumes of people without the required skills, end up in the trash. They never even meet with an interviewer.
Sarcasm ,people !
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Old 08-21-2012, 03:41 PM
 
Location: where people are either too stupid to leave or too stuck to move
3,997 posts, read 5,721,928 times
Reputation: 3635
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
This is where we disagree. What a person chooses to do outside of work is extremely relevant to the job.



And it is also not a good idea to hire someone who hates sports when everyone at the office loves them. Group cohesiveness is very important.





Actual ability to do the job is assumed. There are dozens (if not more) of people who can do the exact same job as you. There are also dozens (if not more) of people who would be a good team player from a social aspect. Finding the intersection of those two things is the hard part. Nearly every interviewing process comes down to other skills. At the end of the day, realistically, ability to do the job is half of what goes into the hiring decision and this other stuff is the other half.
Sarcasm ,people !
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Old 08-21-2012, 03:45 PM
 
Location: USA
7,478 posts, read 5,785,071 times
Reputation: 12321
Quote:
Originally Posted by L'Artiste View Post
Sarcasm ,people !
Hehehe... Oh, come now!

As has been harped upon so often on this board, corporations would NEVER make a mistake, nor would connections, cronyism, looks, or anything else *ever* sway the hiring process! No, no - quite clearly, people without the requires skills would *never* make it an onsite interview...not even if they are the boss's son or something... right...

For example, my former employer has a hiring freeze because they are losing contracts left and right and can't engineer their way out of a paper bag, and yet they hired two new college graduates recently. Both are kids of various VP's, but I'm sure they are also fully qualified for the jobs... in fact, so qualified that they magically deserve to get around the hiring freeze even though from what I heard, nobody knew what to do with them when they showed up for work because they weren't needed...
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Old 08-21-2012, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Portlandia "burbs"
10,234 posts, read 13,977,460 times
Reputation: 25884
They must have picked up on something that they thought would be a risk. If you're dealing with the public, or in customer service, then one should hope that the interviewers could filter through the personality thing in favor of other compatibilities for the job. Have you asked people close to you what your personality, as they see it, could impart to turn an employer off? (You'd have to be prepared for the truth.)

What they picked up on could be important. For example, if a person gives off an air of being condescending, that could be a humongous obstacle in any job if you work around people. I worked with one person who was like that and she was at battle with everyone in that huge department (and she has no friends or allies). I have a nephew who tried for years to become a cop and he failed to get hired, and we all know it's because of his I-know-everything-better-than-you-do personality. He is in his mid-40's and still unemployable.

On the other hand, if this is the only time that you sensed this kind of reaction in an interview then it was probably an isolate fluke. Hope you find something real soon.
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Old 08-21-2012, 07:15 PM
 
5,191 posts, read 4,884,051 times
Reputation: 3314
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
The fact that you are the kind of person who goes skiing or rock climbing, or collects stamps, or chooses to live green says a lot about your personality. In hiring someone, I have an extremely small window to get to know a person as best I can. Ideally I would be able to watch someone work for a few months before hiring (which is why internships are amazing things), but that is often an impossibility. Because of that, like it or not, a certain amount of personal judgment has to be used.
And what does skiing say about a person's personality that makes them a better employee?

Quote:
If you are interviewing for a job as a computer programmer where extremely small details are the difference between a wildly successful project and a dramatic failure, the fact that you don't have the focus/energy to even keep your car clean tells me something. If the job requires a person to stay late for a week or so every quarter, but the candidate isn't even motivated enough to keep their house clean, then that is a warning to me.
First of all, whether or not a person is a skiier has nothing to do with whether or not they keep their car or their house clean.

Secondly, since you don't get to go inside potential employees' houses, how do you even know if they keep their house clean?

Thirdly, what about someone who works so much overtime that they don't have the time to keep their car and/or house clean to your standards? It doesn't mean they are lazy, it means the opposite.

Quote:
Is this fair? Absolutely not, but it is reality. Hiring someone is about minimizing the chances of hiring a poor candidate, so (like it or not) we have to make judgement calls that occasionally are simply not fair.
You have the attitude that you want to avoid "bad" employees at all costs, even if it means losing a much larger number of "good" employees. That may work in the current economy. But it is going to come back to bite you when the economy improves and all the good employees already have jobs at other companies that don't base their hiring on petty factors such as who goes skiing more often or who washes their car more often.

You still have not answered my other question: do you agree with me that even if you choose to hire primarily employees who fit one particular demographic or personality type, it would still be best for employers to suck it up and hire at least a small number of non-conforming employees?
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Old 08-21-2012, 07:18 PM
 
5,191 posts, read 4,884,051 times
Reputation: 3314
Quote:
Originally Posted by annerk View Post
If it's a company that sells skis, I can see why they wouldn't want to hire anyone who doesn't participate in the sport.
I agree with you there. But I've said several times that the company I work for does not sell skis, and has absolutely nothing at all to do with skiing.

Quote:
The obvious answer to the question, "Do you ski?" is "No, but I enjoy the atmosphere at ski lodges--I love to sit in a hot tub with snow all around." It shows that while you don't participate in that sport, you understand it and would be able to fit in with the skiers.
The problem with that is that it would be lying (I've never been to a ski lodge, so I have no way of knowing if I would enjoy the atmosphere or not), and they will easily figure out that I am lying, most likely by asking questions about ski lodges that I would be unable to answer. Secondly, if what they are looking for (for whatever reason) is "athletic" people, then they would view the person who sits in the hot tub as being lazy, and wouldn't hire him. Thirdly, just because they ask if you ski doesn't mean that it's a company full of skiiers. It could be a company full of non-skiiers who ask that question, so that they can filter out skiiers who are unwilling to work overtime on winter weekends.
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Old 08-22-2012, 06:11 AM
 
9,856 posts, read 13,418,079 times
Reputation: 5453
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
And what does skiing say about a person's personality that makes them a better employee?
Being an athletic person says something about a person's personality that would potentially make them a better employee. Having outside hobbies instead of sitting at home in front of a TV says something about a person that can indicate they are a better employee. The specific activity doesn't matter as much.

Quote:
First of all, whether or not a person is a skiier has nothing to do with whether or not they keep their car or their house clean.
I never said those are related, those were two examples of outside activities that say two different things about a person's personality.

Quote:
Secondly, since you don't get to go inside potential employees' houses, how do you even know if they keep their house clean?
Obviously I can't. I do, however, offer to walk them to their car at the end of the interview so I can see how clean their car is.

Quote:
Thirdly, what about someone who works so much overtime that they don't have the time to keep their car and/or house clean to your standards? It doesn't mean they are lazy, it means the opposite.
Someone who takes pride in themselves keeps their houses/cars clean anyway.

Quote:
You have the attitude that you want to avoid "bad" employees at all costs, even if it means losing a much larger number of "good" employees. That may work in the current economy. But it is going to come back to bite you when the economy improves and all the good employees already have jobs at other companies that don't base their hiring on petty factors such as who goes skiing more often or who washes their car more often.
Look - I already said that it isn't a fair system, but it is the system I have to live with. If I hire a single bad employee, it is extremely hard to fire them. I have to document months upon months of mistakes before I have a chance to fire someone, and then I risk being sued (regardless of whether they have a case or not). If I am sued by an employee for discrimination, even if it is complete BS and the lawsuit is thrown out, it can cost the company $25k in legal fees and generate a lot of bad press. It is much safer to stereotype before hiring than risk the pain of having to deal with a poor employee. It it were actually easy to fire someone, then I wouldn't make the assumptions that I do when hiring.

Quote:
You still have not answered my other question: do you agree with me that even if you choose to hire primarily employees who fit one particular demographic or personality type, it would still be best for employers to suck it up and hire at least a small number of non-conforming employees?
I often bring in outside consultants for a few months to get outside opinions, so I really don't care about that in terms of someone being a permanent member of the team. Having non-conforming opinions can be very helpful, but it can also bring down an entire business if those opinions are not handled the right way, so it is often safer to bring someone non-conforming in for a few months instead of bringing them in for good.
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Old 08-22-2012, 06:29 AM
 
26,590 posts, read 54,565,311 times
Reputation: 13019
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
I agree with you there. But I've said several times that the company I work for does not sell skis, and has absolutely nothing at all to do with skiing.



The problem with that is that it would be lying (I've never been to a ski lodge, so I have no way of knowing if I would enjoy the atmosphere or not), and they will easily figure out that I am lying, most likely by asking questions about ski lodges that I would be unable to answer. Secondly, if what they are looking for (for whatever reason) is "athletic" people, then they would view the person who sits in the hot tub as being lazy, and wouldn't hire him. Thirdly, just because they ask if you ski doesn't mean that it's a company full of skiiers. It could be a company full of non-skiiers who ask that question, so that they can filter out skiiers who are unwilling to work overtime on winter weekends.
Based on this response, I wouldn't hire you. You seem very argumentative. And no, I wouldn't see someone who sits in a hot tub at the end of the day as lazy.
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Old 08-22-2012, 07:25 AM
 
Location: Petticoat Junction
930 posts, read 1,639,310 times
Reputation: 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer View Post
Precisely. In addition, your ability to work well with the team is a more important part of your overall skill set.
Agreed.


Skills can be taught, in the vast majority of cases......Jerks are usually jerks forever.
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Old 08-22-2012, 09:58 AM
 
125 posts, read 221,026 times
Reputation: 91
Please...enough with the skiing already!

The importance of likability depends upon the job. In the OP's case, likability in an office manager is definitely preferred. I remember my first job out of law school, the office manager of the firm was a cold fish. She worked hard and got the job done, but her stiffness brought down the mood of the office environment. She didn't last long.
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