Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
1. Most companies I have worked for going back at least 15 years have only checked the most basic information as far as I know, that being verification of employment dates and whether or not the candidate is eligible to be re-hired at the same company. There are, as far as I know, serious legal ramifications for providing information that could damage a candidate's chances at getting the job, so most companies that I am aware of are super, super cautious and careful when obtaining information from references (other HR departments) and companies are also cautious about disclosing such information. Companies can be sued and possibly even fined. But that is from my knowledge and experience, correct me if I'm wrong. Procedures may vary across different professions and industries.
2. My feeling is, if this company cannot understand that I have done the best I can on the references and have no others to give, I would indeed not want to pursue it any longer. There are plenty of companies out there that will do a skills test for certain positions, just verify dates of employment and do a criminal background check, and leave it at that as having enough information to tell if someone is capable of doing the work and is a reasonably trustworthy person.
Plus, almost all companies' employment, for 90% of the jobs out there, is "at-will", meaning either side can terminate the employment at any time, for any reason, so frankly I think, again for MOST mid-level jobs out there that normal college graduates take, talking to former managers does absolutely nothing to add to the idea of whether or not a candidate is capable of doing the job, and is an unnecessary step that the business community needs to seriously rethink continuing to do as the years progress. For high profile executive level jobs, that's a different matter and I do see some need for more detail. But this position is basically "support staff" level. In all honesty they can fill the position through a temp agency and be done with it.
I am also very much against companies doing credit checks on candidates for positions that do not involve handling money or having access to customers' private account information. The position I am a candidate for does not.
Can someone tell me what are companies, that conduct a criminal background check and can pull up almost anything on a candidate they need to know via Social Security number, so scared of??????
Companies check your references because you may be competent with your skills, an excellent interview, but a horrible worker.
When they talk to a real person and ask how you are as a worker they will give the hiring manager a more comprehensive answer.
1. Most companies I have worked for going back at least 15 years have only checked the most basic information as far as I know, that being verification of employment dates and whether or not the candidate is eligible to be re-hired at the same company.
I am also very much against companies doing credit checks on candidates for positions that do not involve handling money or having access to customers' private account information. The position I am a candidate for does not.
Can someone tell me what are companies, that conduct a criminal background check and can pull up almost anything on a candidate they need to know via Social Security number, so scared of??????
I'm inclined to agree with your objections but I also think that a lot of confusion seems to be arising because employers (or their application processes) are lumping together "references" with "past employers". You're quite correct that most employers these days will only respond to two enquiries; confirmation of the term of employment and the "would you rehire this person" question. Professional references are completely different. It's been rather a long time since I've applied for a job but even over the past several years when I've hired people I've differentiated between the two.
For instance, let's say that I decided to apply for a position today. The last time I was an employee was 17 years ago since I opened and closed my own business in the next 16 years. I wouldn't expect my last employer to do anything other than verify my employment and (hopefully!) answer the rehire question positively. Unfortunately my direct boss has since passed away so can't give me the glowing reference but I made innumerable contacts through that job and (of course with pre-approval) would use those people as my "references". And, yes, there are many with whom I remain in contact to this day. Via their own history with me back then, continued interaction with them through my own business and (gasp!) my interaction with several of them related to volunteer activities, they know my capabilities and would have no problem whatsoever attesting to them. Oh, wait, I guess today that's called "networking"?
I agree with you too about criminal and credit checks - to a point. Personally I would find it intrusive but I also understand the rationale behind it. Just in my own small community, the lack of such background checks has eventually resulted in some really nasty stuff. A high-ranking CEO of a big institution here who was investigated and subsequently indicted for financial malfeasance was found to have been dishonorably discharged from a branch of the US military for similar reasons but that part of his background slid by the committee which hired him. A high school teacher was indicted on charges of sexually molesting a student and investigation revealed that he was a registered sex offender - but nobody during the hiring process had bothered to do a background check on him.
I could go on but I think you get the point. Like everything else, it comes down to the lowest common denominator. All the best to you!
Companies check your references because you may be competent with your skills, an excellent interview, but a horrible worker.
When they talk to a real person and ask how you are as a worker they will give the hiring manager a more comprehensive answer.
Companies are increasingly reluctant to allow a "real person" to talk to the HR contact (I pretty much only work for larger companies and avoid the mom-and-pop businesses where the owner makes the HR decisions - many of them, not all, but many, tend to be horrible places to work for, from my own experience).
Again, there is too much concern that something will be said that will keep the candidate from getting hired and open the company up to legal action.
Also, and I was just thinking about this before I saw your response, IMO if an employee has been with the company longer than 6 months to a year and has not been fired, that's a pretty good indicator that s/he is a good worker, productivity and work ethic is good, and gets along reasonably well with the co-workers, managers and/or customers/clients.
If you don't know after 3-6 months whether or not a new hire will "work out" I frankly question how well you're running your business.
I'm inclined to agree with your objections but I also think that a lot of confusion seems to be arising because employers (or their application processes) are lumping together "references" with "past employers". You're quite correct that most employers these days will only respond to two enquiries; confirmation of the term of employment and the "would you rehire this person" question. Professional references are completely different. It's been rather a long time since I've applied for a job but even over the past several years when I've hired people I've differentiated between the two.
For instance, let's say that I decided to apply for a position today. The last time I was an employee was 17 years ago since I opened and closed my own business in the next 16 years. I wouldn't expect my last employer to do anything other than verify my employment and (hopefully!) answer the rehire question positively. Unfortunately my direct boss has since passed away so can't give me the glowing reference but I made innumerable contacts through that job and (of course with pre-approval) would use those people as my "references". And, yes, there are many with whom I remain in contact to this day. Via their own history with me back then, continued interaction with them through my own business and (gasp!) my interaction with several of them related to volunteer activities, they know my capabilities and would have no problem whatsoever attesting to them. Oh, wait, I guess today that's called "networking"?
I agree with you too about criminal and credit checks - to a point. Personally I would find it intrusive but I also understand the rationale behind it. Just in my own small community, the lack of such background checks has eventually resulted in some really nasty stuff. A high-ranking CEO of a big institution here who was investigated and subsequently indicted for financial malfeasance was found to have been dishonorably discharged from a branch of the US military for similar reasons but that part of his background slid by the committee which hired him. A high school teacher was indicted on charges of sexually molesting a student and investigation revealed that he was a registered sex offender - but nobody during the hiring process had bothered to do a background check on him.
I could go on but I think you get the point. Like everything else, it comes down to the lowest common denominator. All the best to you!
Thanks for your great response.
1. I have never been much of a networker. That admittedly has held me back in my career, but my personality does not lend itself to "schmoozing" and public speaking and the like. I feel more comfortable letting my work speak for itself, and for the most part I have managed just fine. This "Great Recession" has just made things 10X more tough, to be both an employee and an entrepreneur.
2. For more critical and important jobs like the CEO and the HS teacher you mentioned - yes, detailed checks and reference checks are critical. People like that deal directly with people's lives, so that's important. I'll bet the parents of that student sued the **** out of the school district that hired a registered sex offender to be in direct contact with young people. Instances like that, yes, I am 100% on board with being quite thorough in checking everything out. But for most jobs where there is minimal high-level contact with money, important information or people, the most basic of information should be sufficient to give a hiring HR department and manager a good idea of how the candidate will do.
1. I have never been much of a networker. That admittedly has held me back in my career, but my personality does not lend itself to "schmoozing" and public speaking and the like. I feel more comfortable letting my work speak for itself, and for the most part I have managed just fine. This "Great Recession" has just made things 10X more tough, to be both an employee and an entrepreneur.
2. For more critical and important jobs like the CEO and the HS teacher you mentioned - yes, detailed checks and reference checks are critical. People like that deal directly with people's lives, so that's important. I'll bet the parents of that student sued the **** out of the school district that hired a registered sex offender to be in direct contact with young people. Instances like that, yes, I am 100% on board with being quite thorough in checking everything out. But for most jobs where there is minimal high-level contact with money, important information or people, the most basic of information should be sufficient to give a hiring HR department and manager a good idea of how the candidate will do.
1. Same goes for me. But the current "networking" phraseology I suppose has been part of who I am for many years. I've never been a schmoozer and the only public speaking I've done has been through a passion about the subject I'm talking about when I've even amazed myself at how articulate I've been! The "depression" (it surely is that) has definitely made things very tough for the masses. Rather unlike the last designated US Depression, the US has raised since then two and now into three generations who are what we today call "the entitled".
2. I totally understand your point and agree that things "should" work that way. But they don't. That's the reality and you can rail about it 'til the cows come home (where I live de goat-dem!) but that won't change a darned thing.
I am under serious consideration for a second interview. The first interview earlier this week went great, the hiring manager likes me, and I passed a skills test just fine. The company seems like an awesome place to work and they seem to be OK with my salary requirements. Company is in financial services and has a reputation for being conservative in culture, but a "work hard/play hard" kind of place.
Today I got an email from an HR person from the potential new company saying she cannot reach two of my references. These are names/phone numbers I have used for the past 2-3 years with no issues. One is no longer with one firm, as may be the case with another. I have no other references as some of the companies I have worked for over the years (about 20 years in the workforce after college) have changed ownership, management, and a couple have even shut down.
Now I am NOT one of those people that stays in touch with former managers after I leave a company. I always try to leave on as positive a note as possible, but once I'm gone, I'm gone. My ultimate goal is to work for myself, but getting clients is another story altogether.
In my experience, the "references" part of the hiring process has always been just a way for the hiring HR to confirm with someone, usually another HR person, at the old company just the most basic of information: confirming my dates of employment and eligibility for rehire - nothing too fancy. This is the first time in at least 10-15 years in MY career that a potential employer's HR person is actually trying to speak directly to former managers that I am aware of.
(BTW, I start another position Monday - a lower paying job in telephone customer service - I used the same reference information, and NO issues whatsoever, didn't even come up, but this position, they are taking almost anyone in from off the street that seems to be halfway screwed on right.)
I replied to the HR lady that I may have to withdraw from consideration if this becomes too insurmountable of an issue - which I am perfectly fine with, I live in Houston which is one of the strongest job markets in the nation right now, I start a new job on Monday so I'll have a fighting chance at making my rent, and something else will come along.
Next time I will state on the application "Please note: Manager no longer with company, discuss employment dates/rehire eligibility with HR" as part of the duties/responsibilities.
Thoughts?
I think there is more to your story than your telling. Because you contradict yourself in later posts.
As one poster suggested go on Linkedin(you don't even have to join) and you can see where these people are currently working, even if you didn't keep in contact with them it takes little to no effort to send them an email or call them and explain your situation.
If you left the jobs on good terms and weren't a difficult person there is no reason they wouldn't help you out with a few minutes of their time.
It sounds like a great job and yet you want to make no effort to track down a couple of people? Something doesn't add up. Sounds like there are reasons you're not comfortable contacting these people.
It happened to me many times. Can you find some other people that will give a ref.?
To be honest, the best jobs I have had are those where they need me right away and one reference or two wouldn't have made a difference. I completely understand how you feel.
It happened to me many times. Can you find some other people that will give a ref.?
To be honest, the best jobs I have had are those where they need me right away and one reference or two wouldn't have made a difference. I completely understand how you feel.
I think a lot of the times is attitude. I have lost my job several times (layoffs and I quit once) and to be honest as I had savings I never really showed a lot of desperation and that helps a lot
Companies are increasingly reluctant to allow a "real person" to talk to the HR contact (I pretty much only work for larger companies and avoid the mom-and-pop businesses where the owner makes the HR decisions - many of them, not all, but many, tend to be horrible places to work for, from my own experience).
True, but (at least in my industry) many people do move around and may no longer be at that company. For example, my references from my time at companies A and B are no longer at those companies. So that is no longer an issue.
Also, references should be people you have somewhat of a relationship with, and who have agreed in advance to act as a reference and, as such, should be giving you a good one. I have had one or two former employees, who were not great employees to begin with, contact me to be a reference and I politely declined, rather than risk answering any questions about them in a negative light.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
