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Old 06-16-2013, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Buckeye, AZ
27,454 posts, read 15,849,689 times
Reputation: 9914

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
All applicants have 30 minutes available if they show up as instructed. This is an absolutely level playing field. If you cannot get it done in the time and conditions provided, maybe the poster does not want to hire you for exactly that reason.
I understand that and that is fair. The issue I was wondering about was the accuracy vs. time period. Only the OP and applicants know how long the application is. It could be a short one with name, address, phone, simple job history and education or it could be a longer one looking for skills, all the information for the job history, a paragraph for work experience, a parfor EACH job (which if you had more jobs this works against you), questionnaire and a skills test.

Quote:
It may also show those people who can produce a reasonable work product in the time allowed. The OP is giving applicants the opportunity to show a skill, and all you are doing is saying that his setup will weed out people who do not have that skill.

To me that seems like the OP has a process that works.
I think the next post is the best rebuttal to this claim if it works or not:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_the_facts View Post
But the skill of filling out a paper application within 30 minutes is not necessarily a skill relevant to the job. After all, there is likely very little hand writing involved in the job the applicant is interviewing for.
I cannot tell if this is a requirement to the job, a like to have or one of those un-spoken, un-written job requirements. I think it maybe helpful for the OP to mention if they post the job description. This way, we can tell if this is a hoop that job applicants have to go through that has no value to the position in the end.
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Old 06-16-2013, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
9,044 posts, read 8,459,188 times
Reputation: 15668
Who cares whether it is long or short, detailed or not? That is completely irrelevant. The OP said he tested it and it should take 20 minutes to do; he is giving them 30.

If nobody can finish it that would become apparent to the OP pretty quickly and he could give people a longer time period, or simply choose from amongst those who did the best given the time constraints.

Both you and just-the-facts have missed the point. It is not about filling out the form, penmanship, or even accuracy. It is about following instructions (bring your documentation), being punctual (arrive 30 minutes before scheduled interview), and working under a deadline (self evident).

Not everything in a job is completely cut and dried. Computers go down. Once/year projects need to be done. People have to fill in for others who get sick. You never really know what is going to happen over the next five years, so testing for work habits is a reasonable thing to do.

If I were the OP and you were the applicant, I would know not to hire you because you have missed the point of the test and then whined about irrelevant stuff.
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Old 06-16-2013, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Buckeye, AZ
27,454 posts, read 15,849,689 times
Reputation: 9914
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
Who cares whether it is long or short, detailed or not? That is completely irrelevant. The OP said he tested it and it should take 20 minutes to do; he is giving them 30.

If nobody can finish it that would become apparent to the OP pretty quickly and he could give people a longer time period, or simply choose from amongst those who did the best given the time constraints.
OK the average of 20 minutes from "average people" during testing, did it include the stress of going to an interview in it or was it just corporate? A ten minute buffer is fair but if you have jitters or God forbid, try to answer questions that the HR assistant or other applicants ask (like you're supposed to) it may chip in to that.

Quote:
Both you and just-the-facts have missed the point. It is not about filling out the form, penmanship, or even accuracy. It is about following instructions (bring your documentation), being punctual (arrive 30 minutes before scheduled interview), and working under a deadline (self evident).
Let's go back to the original post shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanNature View Post
The HR Assistant checks with the applicant 30 minutes after they start filling out the application and usually finds the following:

1) They did not bring the information to supply data on previous bosses and employers and contact information, so they leave it blank or put SEE RESUME.

2) They have made almost no progress on the application at all.

3) Their handwriting is so poor you can not understand what they are saying.

4) They don't remember what they did in past jobs so were unable to write the paragraph description requested about the responsibilities of each job.
So they the OP does not care about penmanship? It is only a part of the criteria to boot the job candidate out of the applicant pool. So I guess maybe it is a part of the criteria to be a candidate going further on in the applicant pool.

[quote]Not everything in a job is completely cut and dried. Computers go down. Once/year projects need to be done. People have to fill in for others who get sick. You never really know what is going to happen over the next five years, so testing for work habits is a reasonable thing to do.

I understand that. Though most times there are some back up. Computers down, you bring a laptop and have USB back-up. Internet down, see if you can make your phone a mobile hotspot. That is not a nebulous concept. The issue is what habits are relevant to the position and which aren't. Not every position require an employee to say type up paragraphs about experience or actually writing things up with pen and handing them to your superior. If the job requires that, I will understand.

Quote:
If I were the OP and you were the applicant, I would know not to hire you because you have missed the point of the test and then whined about irrelevant stuff.
If you were the OP, you shouldn't hire yourself in that case cause you missed a point in what the HR assistant found.
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Old 06-16-2013, 08:47 PM
 
7,422 posts, read 13,738,193 times
Reputation: 4944
Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanNature View Post
1) They did not bring the information to supply data on previous bosses and employers and contact information, so they leave it blank or put SEE RESUME.

if they put "see resume", then they did bring the information. it's printed out on their resume, probably nice and organized and easy to read. making them rewrite that all by hand is only relevant to their work habits if the job consists of jumping through pointless and redundant hoops all day.
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Old 06-16-2013, 09:14 PM
 
Location: On the aggravation installment plan...
501 posts, read 668,566 times
Reputation: 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanNature View Post
Where I work, we just developed a new Employment Application and had a few people completely fill it out to see how long the typical person would take to completely fill it out. We determined a reasonably efficient person should take no more than 20 minutes to fill it out.

If your company wants 10 years of employment history including listing any and all temporary jobs separately, for example, then 20-30 min may not be enough time to complete the application.
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Old 06-17-2013, 04:15 AM
 
111 posts, read 565,411 times
Reputation: 195
The reply below was the most logical response to my original post. This poster understood that the employment process is a set of tests that help the potential employer understand as much as possible about the stranger who is applying and could have a major impact on the success of her company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
Who cares whether it is long or short, detailed or not? That is completely irrelevant. The OP said he tested it and it should take 20 minutes to do; he is giving them 30.

If nobody can finish it that would become apparent to the OP pretty quickly and he could give people a longer time period, or simply choose from amongst those who did the best given the time constraints.

Both you and just-the-facts have missed the point. It is not about filling out the form, penmanship, or even accuracy. It is about following instructions (bring your documentation), being punctual (arrive 30 minutes before scheduled interview), and working under a deadline (self evident).

Not everything in a job is completely cut and dried. Computers go down. Once/year projects need to be done. People have to fill in for others who get sick. You never really know what is going to happen over the next five years, so testing for work habits is a reasonable thing to do.

If I were the OP and you were the applicant, I would know not to hire you because you have missed the point of the test and then whined about irrelevant stuff.
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Old 06-17-2013, 04:51 AM
 
7,422 posts, read 13,738,193 times
Reputation: 4944
it's not logical to say that someone "didn't bring the information they needed" if they put "see resume" in the job duties section instead of pointlessly rewriting information that they have already provided.

i would want to hire people who think critically and notice inefficiencies and redundancies in existing systems, and then find better ways to deal with them. those seem like highly desirable traits for almost any job. but i guess you want people who use the system that exists without questioning, even if it's no good. i guess that would eliminate me as a candidate for you, but that's good because i wouldn't want to work for someone who thought that way. it's a win-win! you get your sheep, and i get a boss who values problem-solving instead of blind following.

by the way, if you don't want people to write "see resume", you should probably say that on the application. because otherwise it's a highly logical and efficient solution that any smart person who was prepared and brought a resume would do to save time. if you put that in the instructions, at least they know they have to waste their time writing everything out again.
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Old 06-17-2013, 08:39 AM
 
111 posts, read 565,411 times
Reputation: 195
You assume that the applicant has a standard traditional chronological resume that lists every job they have held for the last ten years and lists all their basic duties and tasks for each and every job.

Instead many of the applicants had a functional resume and only promoted the jobs that made them look good.

A resume is an advertisement, while the application is similar to a legal document.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groar View Post
it's not logical to say that someone "didn't bring the information they needed" if they put "see resume" in the job duties section instead of pointlessly rewriting information that they have already provided.

i would want to hire people who think critically and notice inefficiencies and redundancies in existing systems, and then find better ways to deal with them. those seem like highly desirable traits for almost any job. but i guess you want people who use the system that exists without questioning, even if it's no good. i guess that would eliminate me as a candidate for you, but that's good because i wouldn't want to work for someone who thought that way. it's a win-win! you get your sheep, and i get a boss who values problem-solving instead of blind following.

by the way, if you don't want people to write "see resume", you should probably say that on the application. because otherwise it's a highly logical and efficient solution that any smart person who was prepared and brought a resume would do to save time. if you put that in the instructions, at least they know they have to waste their time writing everything out again.
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Old 06-17-2013, 08:56 AM
 
7,422 posts, read 13,738,193 times
Reputation: 4944
if they write "see resume" and the information they're skipping is not on their resume, sure, i can see that being held against them. but that's not the impression i got from your first post. are functional resumes really that common?
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Old 06-17-2013, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Las Flores, Orange County, CA
26,346 posts, read 83,111,241 times
Reputation: 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanNature View Post
All applicants for employment in our company have to completely fill out an Employment Application in our lobby.
I noticed your post was dated June 15, 1977.

People actually fill out employment applications by hand? With ink? Sounds really inefficient to have to have a human process those applications.

How does the hiring department scan through thousands of applications searching for key words?

I wouldn't apply to your company. Waste of my time. Why should I drive to your company and fill out an application when I can apply to a hundred jobs in an hour from the comfort of my computer?
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