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Old 06-19-2013, 01:38 PM
 
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oh, i have a question for the OP - if someone flunks the paper application test, do you still waste their time and yours interviewing them? or do you just send them home right then and there?
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Old 06-19-2013, 01:50 PM
jw2
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by groar View Post
oh, i have a question for the OP - if someone flunks the paper application test, do you still waste their time and yours interviewing them? or do you just send them home right then and there?
And, to add, do you send the résumé to the hiring manager with a note saying why you let the applicant go, e.g. his handwriting was sloppy
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Old 06-19-2013, 02:06 PM
 
111 posts, read 564,105 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by groar View Post
oh, i have a question for the OP - if someone flunks the paper application test, do you still waste their time and yours interviewing them? or do you just send them home right then and there?
I am not in charge of this program, so I don't do anything myself but here is the policy of the company:

They believe that a job interview alone is not going to tell us much about the candidate and if they would be a great addition to our staff. Some people are great interviewers but are terrible workers, or would not fit into our culture. So the job interview is just part of the recruitment process and a small part of the decision on who to hire. Other factors include:

1) The Employment Application. Again, it is a great way to see if people can do things well under pressure, follow directions and a way to verify the information on the resume. A person's handwriting does not have to be perfect but if they don't try and can't write at all then they are scored poorly. But no, they are not thrown out for not filling out the application fully in thirty minutes, but if they did not fill it out at all and just said SEE RESUME, it would be an indication that they did not take direction well because the application says everything has to be filled out and not to put SEE RESUME.

2) Writing Sample

3) A technical skills test related to the type of work they are doing.

4) Professional References.

5) Background Investigation

6) A review of their background in relation to the needs of the position.
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Old 06-19-2013, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Buckeye, AZ
27,395 posts, read 15,816,842 times
Reputation: 9899
Quote:
Originally Posted by wireyourworld View Post
This isn't grade school with a bell curve.

No employer should have to lower what its a pretty low bar to begin with. Can you show up prepared and do you have the ability to read and write?
I would imagine MOST would. Hell, they would also need to be able to communicate with the interviewer.

Quote:
Under pressure? If you can't handle that, how are you going to handle the job? Stressed? Jobs are stressful.
But as detshen and others mentioned, the average 20 minutes to finish can be scruitinized. Perhaps the average 20 minute application was given to test applicants and they added 10 more minutes when it became a hiring policy. Perhaps the testing was given to employees who perhaps had the information ready and were not facing the same "stress" a job seeker does. A job seeker shows up at the location, find the office suite and fill in an application. Perhaps they also asked questions (that take ) by the administrative assistant who gives the application. Perhaps the office is too cold or too warm. There are a lot of issues in the job interview that can create stress.

Quote:
How does an employer know you're even literate? Someone else could have prepared your resume and filled out the online apps for you.
Somewhat fair point but you can always copy what you wrote on your resume. Even if they didn't type it up, a trained monkey can copy things from a resume.

Quote:
And, IMO, writing "see resume" when asked to fill out a paper app is an insult and a sign of an employee with a potential disregard for procedure, a lack of patience, and an unwillingness to do what the employer asks.
A job seeker can turn around and say that having a chronological resume (I typically use a functional resume because many jobs didn't have the exact titles to ones I had) shows the jobs and duties they do.

Quote:
Do you think its a game? It is. I play to win it. If they want me to fill out a paper app I fill out a paper app with a smile on my face and determined that it be the best darned paper app I ever filled out.
It is a game, a sick game that I guess everyone needs to play until the hiring process is changed because of a decrease in the supply of workers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanNature View Post
I am not in charge of this program, so I don't do anything myself but here is the policy of the company:

They believe that a job interview alone is not going to tell us much about the candidate and if they would be a great addition to our staff. Some people are great interviewers but are terrible workers, or would not fit into our culture. So the job interview is just part of the recruitment process and a small part of the decision on who to hire. Other factors include:

1) The Employment Application. Again, it is a great way to see if people can do things well under pressure, follow directions and a way to verify the information on the resume. A person's handwriting does not have to be perfect but if they don't try and can't write at all then they are scored poorly. But no, they are not thrown out for not filling out the application fully in thirty minutes, but if they did not fill it out at all and just said SEE RESUME, it would be an indication that they did not take direction well because the application says everything has to be filled out and not to put SEE RESUME.

2) Writing Sample

3) A technical skills test related to the type of work they are doing.

4) Professional References.

5) Background Investigation

6) A review of their background in relation to the needs of the position.
The interview is a good indicator but not the only one. Unless it is a group interview, hearing if an employee is good/great by one person can be scrutinized. Fair enough.

I understand testing, and to extent a sample. However if the applicant brings a resume with job duties mentioned, and they bring a copy and attach it to the application, I would think a reasonable person would not complain about it if they had the blow away interview and the sum of everything else is greater than any other applicant score or they scored enough for the next step in the process. I mean don't companies want people who think out of the box like an applicant who brought a chronological resume with them to explain their job duties for an application rather than write all of those and perhaps not finish another part of the application.

Last edited by mkpunk; 06-19-2013 at 02:29 PM.. Reason: Added Human Nature's Post
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Old 06-19-2013, 02:26 PM
 
6,791 posts, read 7,117,325 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by groar View Post
this is not a test of whether someone can "read and write". good or bad handwriting is not a test of writing ability.

the doctors and nurses where i work can read and write but a lot of them have horrendous handwriting. it's a stereotype for a reason.



if the instructions specifically ask for written out job duties, sure. but if there's just a "job duties" section, and i've already given you all of that information in my resume, it makes sense to just refer to that. some applications specifically say you can do that; some specifically say you can't. it's really not that difficult to make it clear that you don't want that.

maybe at some point i'll be desperate enough for a job that i'll jump through whatever stupid hoops are put in front of me just to get a job to support myself. i'm grateful that i haven't gotten to that point yet.

Exactly! I have an advanced degrees, have only received excellent ratings at every job I've ever had, including working in Human Resources for a few years. I now run a very successful business. One can call me arrogant, but any company would be lucky to have me as an employee, but if I applied at this company, they would likely never know that because of this useless system.

I have horrendous handwriting, no matter how hard I try I can't make it look good, or fit it into the usual size spaces. With effort, I can print with some degree of neatness, but it would take me forever to get through that application that requires paragraphs for 10 years of job and educational experience. It would also cause a lot of unnecessary frustration, I could have typed it all out in 5 minutes, and brought it with me. It might not be surprising that I work in the medical field, I went to school for advanced degrees, had a number of jobs, and now my own practice, and I NEVER wrote ANYTHING by hand except for my own use (yes, I can read my writing, but no one else can). I know many people like this, all highly intelligent, qualified people who the OP would regard as morons, if he/she were to live in my city one of us may have been a person who helped her/him have abetter life.

I feel for HR, I know it's hard to find good employees, but creating arbitrary hoops for people to jump through isn't the answer, and only leads to increasing thoughts that HR is more of a hindrance than a help.

Last edited by detshen; 06-19-2013 at 03:00 PM..
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Old 06-19-2013, 02:39 PM
 
6,791 posts, read 7,117,325 times
Reputation: 6970
Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanNature View Post
I am not in charge of this program, so I don't do anything myself but here is the policy of the company:

They believe that a job interview alone is not going to tell us much about the candidate and if they would be a great addition to our staff. Some people are great interviewers but are terrible workers, or would not fit into our culture. So the job interview is just part of the recruitment process and a small part of the decision on who to hire. Other factors include:

1) The Employment Application. Again, it is a great way to see if people can do things well under pressure, follow directions and a way to verify the information on the resume. A person's handwriting does not have to be perfect but if they don't try and can't write at all then they are scored poorly. But no, they are not thrown out for not filling out the application fully in thirty minutes, but if they did not fill it out at all and just said SEE RESUME, it would be an indication that they did not take direction well because the application says everything has to be filled out and not to put SEE RESUME.

2) Writing Sample

3) A technical skills test related to the type of work they are doing.

4) Professional References.

5) Background Investigation

6) A review of their background in relation to the needs of the position.
Most of that is fine and relates to the job, but you can give people the option to fill the application out electronically, and bring it with them. If they still don't complete it correctly then you have your answer, but making them hand write it and complete it in 30 minutes while waiting to be interviewed tells you nothing about how they would actually perform at the job. I'm not saying you don't need the information, the problem is the current process. Any of those other tests would show an ability to follow directions, and perform under pressure, but in a way that actually applies to the job.

You don't seem to comprehend that poor handwriting has nothing to do with being sloppy, or not trying. It's a physical, muscular skill that many highly capable people struggle with, add in nerves and it only gets worse, and most people have no practice at in this electronic age. I do not know of any jobs where neat handwriting is required.

Last edited by detshen; 06-19-2013 at 03:10 PM..
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:06 PM
 
Location: Corona the I.E.
10,078 posts, read 14,044,350 times
Reputation: 8925
I had one company that was a trainwreck to begin with, tell me I needed to fill out a paper app so I said sure, I am pretty desp. for work, and I looked at it, they didn't ask me to show up 30 min early, so I did the standard 5-10 min, started to fill out app realized I won't be able to complete so I did what I felt was most important...........I signed and dated it so they could perform background check.
The best part the asked me to list me references, and these people are known for being d bags so I left if blank let them find their own candidates not freeload off me.
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:34 AM
 
Location: Long Neck,De
4,792 posts, read 6,799,870 times
Reputation: 4768
Quote:
Originally Posted by LongtimeBravesFan View Post
I once worked at a car dealership in the business office. One of my duties was to write out a check by han every day that tranfered funds from one account to another. I then had to have the boss sign it before I sent it to the bank.

For the first couple weeks, he would complain about my poor handwriting. (I was writing in cursive). Then one day, I wrote all the information on the check by printing. I walked into his office without saying a word and tossed the check into the in box on his desk. A few moments later, he came out with a big smile on his face and said that was exactly how he wanted me to do the checks from then on.

For the rest of the time I worked there, I printed on the checks and he never had a problem.
Once long ago when we owned a business the book keeper asked my wife to not let me write checks or make entries in the check book.
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Old 06-22-2013, 11:39 AM
 
3,721 posts, read 3,924,598 times
Reputation: 3366
Quote:
Originally Posted by detshen View Post

I feel for HR, I know it's hard to find good employees, but creating arbitrary hoops for people to jump through isn't the answer, and only leads to increasing thoughts that HR is more of a hindrance than a help.

This.
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Old 06-24-2013, 01:46 PM
 
1,923 posts, read 2,073,091 times
Reputation: 1818
A real employer wouldn't find willingness to work as a bad trait. A sociopath would.
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