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Old 06-25-2013, 12:42 PM
 
32,620 posts, read 16,678,552 times
Reputation: 17528

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanNature View Post
Where I work, we just developed a new Employment Application and had a few people completely fill it out to see how long the typical person would take to completely fill it out. We determined a reasonably efficient person should take no more than 20 minutes to fill it out.

All applicants for employment in our company have to completely fill out an Employment Application in our lobby. We email all applicants and tell them to arrive 30 minutes before the interview to fill out the application and bring all the supporting documents and information they will need to complete the document.

The HR Assistant checks with the applicant 30 minutes after they start filling out the application and usually finds the following:

1) They did not bring the information to supply data on previous bosses and employers and contact information, so they leave it blank or put SEE RESUME.

2) They have made almost no progress on the application at all.

3) Their handwriting is so poor you can not understand what they are saying.

4) They don't remember what they did in past jobs so were unable to write the paragraph description requested about the responsibilities of each job.

In general, many applicants don't pass the first test in the employment process, The Employment Application.
In my experience, HR departments will do anything to reduce the applicant pool as long as it doesn't involve reading resumes or understanding the job requirements.

Can't say your description of this pointless little exercise is doing anything to change my impression... And I'm a hiring manager.
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Old 06-25-2013, 01:37 PM
 
32,620 posts, read 16,678,552 times
Reputation: 17528
Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanNature View Post
I wonder if you owned a company or were a manager and were held responsible by the productivity of the staff (people you stuck your neck out for) and hired, you would be so easy going about the hiring process. Good business managers and owners know that hiring the wrong person can kill a business or department and they need as many vehicles as possible to evaluate the candidate. Seeing how well they fill out an employment application is just one of many tests you should give applicants.
It's a two-way street - you know that, right? The best applicants are sought-after, and if they come with the relevant information neatly laid out in printed format, they will - justifiably - look at the hand-writing routine as a window into the company culture. And then leave.
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Buckeye, AZ
27,395 posts, read 15,822,708 times
Reputation: 9900
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
It's a two-way street - you know that, right? The best applicants are sought-after, and if they come with the relevant information neatly laid out in printed format, they will - justifiably - look at the hand-writing routine as a window into the company culture. And then leave.
That is exactly the issue. Or perhaps these arbitrary test end up screening out the people who would actually be good in this job but are just weak when it comes to handwriting which is a part of the arbitrary tests job applicants for this company faces.
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Old 06-26-2013, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Arizona
5,510 posts, read 6,144,466 times
Reputation: 7288
Wow. One can apply for a job at Walmart on a computer but not at the OP's company.

I also am a hiring manager, and I'm very happy after reading this thread that my company has a streamlined, integrated, online recruiting, application, and on boarding system. The only actual piece of paper involved is the offer letter.
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Old 06-29-2013, 11:02 PM
 
6,791 posts, read 7,118,680 times
Reputation: 6970
I saw a friend today and she actually asked me if I ever use handwriting anymore. She has been getting ready for her wedding, and had to handwrite something, she was telling me how she had a hard time even forming the letters with her hand because she only ever writes her signature, and types everything else. It made me think of this application process, most people are like her, they haven't used handwriting for many years, decades even. I hope this company joins us in the new century, and creates a computer application instead of knocking out qualified applicants with a useless handwriting test.
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Old 06-30-2013, 07:17 AM
 
Location: Ohio
2,801 posts, read 1,834,948 times
Reputation: 1646
After reading most of the posts in this thread I can see why some are having such a hard time "finding a job".

When I was job searching I had all information with me when I applied; dates, names, contact information, etc..

My resume had dates and duties listed for each job.

If you are unwilling/unable to come to the office and fill out an application, AND have all needed information with you, it shows ME what type of employee you would be.

Someone posted they are not going to drive somewhere to fill out an application that takes 20 minutes when they can do 100 in an hour from their computer ... Hmm let me guess, this person isn't or has never been employed.
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Old 06-30-2013, 07:28 AM
 
7,422 posts, read 13,728,806 times
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i don't think most people here have an issue with bringing all the information they need with them to the interview, having been told in advance that they need to.

it's the idea that when the employer has all of your information (in your resume), that you then need to transcribe it all by hand just to pass some silly "test" where you're also graded on your handwriting.

if i was faced with that situation, i would fill out the application, since those often ask for information that would not be in your resume. but in the job duties section for each position, i would put "see resume" unless i was specifically told not to. because it's a huge waste of time to copy out a bunch of text that the employer already has in printed form.

and i just found a job so nyeah.
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Old 06-30-2013, 07:46 AM
 
Location: Ohio
2,801 posts, read 1,834,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by groar View Post
i don't think most people here have an issue with bringing all the information they need with them to the interview, having been told in advance that they need to.

it's the idea that when the employer has all of your information (in your resume), that you then need to transcribe it all by hand just to pass some silly "test" where you're also graded on your handwriting.

if i was faced with that situation, i would fill out the application, since those often ask for information that would not be in your resume. but in the job duties section for each position, i would put "see resume" unless i was specifically told not to. because it's a huge waste of time to copy out a bunch of text that the employer already has in printed form.

and i just found a job so nyeah.
The copying from the resume IS kinda silly, the applications I filled out said; if you have a resume write "see resume" and attach resume.

None of the jobs I applied for had you fill out the application on the spot, you filled it out(you could stay or take it home) and if you were deemed qualified you were called in for in interview or sent a rejection letter.
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Old 06-30-2013, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Full time in the RV
2,869 posts, read 6,414,586 times
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I can see where the OP is coming from. A lot of the comments seem to shift the burden from employee to employer and I think that is out of context here. Paper applications are a reality at his job. Maybe they still use rotary phones. Who knows? This is the entry point to his work and people who can actually fill out an application neatly have an edge over apparently everyone else. Why should the employer struggle to read your application? Why is this the employers fault? You want to work there and that is simply a skill you need. You are told to bring your employment history. What is so hard about that? Why should we hold your hand? This is the real world and you are applying for a job.The OP has been criticized that they are losing good people because of antiquated methods and while probably true this needs to be put in context. If you don’t speak English should the employer supply a translator? Supply and demand of the applicant pool will eventually force a change, but for now, you need the apparently lost skill of filling out a paper app. Let's flip this around. An applicant arrives and says they don't know how to use a computer and want to fill out a paper app. Should they be accommodated?

There is a lot of criticism on this thread that shifts responsibility from applicant to employer that I don’t think is warranted. There seems to be a theme that such transgressions should be forgiven in favor of the applicant. In reality these things separate those who put the extra effort to doing what is asked against those who don’t. You don’t have to like the process. You do have to conform to it. Applicants that expect such coddling are at a disadvantage.

Here is a view from the employer side.

My work employs several thousand people among many departments. Applications for my department are sent directly to me. I am not HR. If hired you will work for me. I am the initial screener.

Here is what I have found that many here think should be dismissed in favor of the applicant:
-No punctuation, spelling or capitalization. This is a job application, not a text message in middle school.
-Picking the wrong state of residence by selecting the first one in the drop down list. Do you really live in the Federated States of Micronesia?
-You said in the career goal box you want to work for company A. That’s fine, but we are company B, their competitor. It is fine you are applying there but you obviously didn’t check your application. I tossed all the apps that did this.
-Gross inaccuracies between your resume and application. I’m talking about employment dates being WAY, WAY off and other glaring inconsistencies.

Interview day is all day and consists of evaluations by your future peers in different areas directly related to the work you’ll be doing. There are no generic tests. Everything is directly job related and with people you’ll actually be working with. Your impression on them has a HUGE impact on if you get hired.

When I was given this responsibility I tried to be the nice guy and give everyone a break. Not anymore. Learned my lesson. Huge time waster.

Applicants invited for an interview and told to report with certain documents and two passport style photos. It is amazing how many people don’t bring photos. I used to let them get photos at lunchtime. Not anymore. Why should I when the other 40+ plus people followed the instructions?

Some are missing documents. Again, I would let them fax or email them to HR. Guess what? Some didn’t bother. Now I gave someone a break and they are being processed for hire and are missing crucial documentation. HR has to chase them down and if they don’t respond they are eliminated and someone else is selected. This bogs down the process and delays those that followed directions in the first place.

The very first thing I do at the interview I ask for the documents and photos. If they don’t have everything they are dismissed. Do I lose good applicants because of a simple error? Sure. This thins the applicant pool because there are plenty of others that did follow the direction.

As a side story there was this big city fire department that received thousands of applications when they were hiring. They sent an application package that included a pen. The instructions said to bring that pen with you to the interview. Not any pen THAT pen. At the interview-which was many, many months later, the first thing they asked was show THAT pen. If you didn’t have it you were dismissed for not following directions.
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Old 06-30-2013, 09:45 PM
 
6,791 posts, read 7,118,680 times
Reputation: 6970
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMD3819 View Post
I can see where the OP is coming from. A lot of the comments seem to shift the burden from employee to employer and I think that is out of context here. Paper applications are a reality at his job. Maybe they still use rotary phones. Who knows? This is the entry point to his work and people who can actually fill out an application neatly have an edge over apparently everyone else. Why should the employer struggle to read your application? Why is this the employers fault? You want to work there and that is simply a skill you need. You are told to bring your employment history. What is so hard about that? Why should we hold your hand? This is the real world and you are applying for a job.The OP has been criticized that they are losing good people because of antiquated methods and while probably true this needs to be put in context. If you don’t speak English should the employer supply a translator? Supply and demand of the applicant pool will eventually force a change, but for now, you need the apparently lost skill of filling out a paper app. Let's flip this around. An applicant arrives and says they don't know how to use a computer and want to fill out a paper app. Should they be accommodated?
We already know this job does not involve handwriting anything, so it is not a test of the actual skills involved for the job, if it were this whole thing would be justified, but it isn't. It's just a useless hoop HR has created, and that's why some of the vitriol thrown at HR is justified, applicants must be screened based on actual job related skills, not a handwriting test in 2013. A typed list of all that information makes a lot more sense for any job in this century, and accomplishes the requirement, that's the point people are making.

Last edited by detshen; 06-30-2013 at 09:56 PM..
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