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Old 07-01-2013, 11:56 AM
 
Location: In the city
1,581 posts, read 3,289,950 times
Reputation: 2357

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^^

The above seems like really good advice.

Everyone applies for a new job at some point, and experience is often the best teacher. We have all made preventable mistakes like submitting a resume with typos or errors, not asking questions during an interview, etc. Its odd to me that so many people want specific feedback. Its like going on a date and having the person never call-- do you REALLY want to know exactly why? Isn't it possible that its just not a good fit? Isn't it best to move along to the next opportunity? Doesn't this feedback sometimes open the door to disputes when the candidate's perception is different than the HM?

I suppose that my outlook is different than many, but I can usually tell with a fairly high degree of accuracy if the job and I were good fits. If I never hear back from what seems like a good fit, I shrug and try again elsewhere. I am not sure what is to be gained by demanding to know all the whys and wherefores. Each situation is different. What works in one instance may not in another.
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:34 PM
 
371 posts, read 622,191 times
Reputation: 375
[quote=whatisthedealwith;30277031]
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowherjaw View Post
Not to beat this dead, but I partially disagree with the bolded sections and potentially disagree with the cost effective part. I don't know what HR system OP's company uses, but many available today automatically send the rejection form letter as automatically as they send the standard "resume received" form letter. That's not the major point of contention because I have no idea what business rules have been programmed into their recruiting system but the notion that it is expensive time-consuming or cost-prohibitive shouldn't be assumed.

As far as the bolded components go, if those statements are all true. then your HR needs to revise its form letter. If you specifically tell a candidate that they do not meet qualifications, then they probably have a right to ask for those specifics. This is why most rejection letter simply state that after reviewing your qualifications, that they are pursuing other candidates at this time. Now there is nothing that says that all qualified candidates will be interviewed, but your company puts itself at risk (at least to a nuisance) when they directly state that someone is not qualified.

I get your situation, and people like her are the reason none of us get any helpful, actionable feedback to make us better candidates, but at least entertain the possibility that your company processes and/or templates can be improved to avoid a similar situation in the future.[/quote]


Here is what I notice when I get requests for "helpful actionable feedback":

1. The candidate DID NOT READ the job announcement. ALL of the information someone needs to apply is clearly stated in our announcements. They say what we are looking for, what you need to have to apply, how to submit your application materials and even what NOT to submit, our review process and an estimate of how long it will take for you to hear about whether or not you made the cut. Our announcements are thorough, but not that much different than many other companies out there. When applicants fail to get attention, it is honestly 90% of the time because either they 1) don't read everything or 2) ignore what is clearly stated. Please understand that when you apply to a job, the organization will tell you what they want. If they say "we require these three things" don't think they will make an exception because you have 2.5 of the 3. I can't tell you how much heartache would be saved if people read and believed what they read.

2. The resume is TERRIBLE. Our HR forwards us all the resumes that meet the criteria we post without prejudice to spelling or format. Many HMs will just throw out those that are hard to understand, full of typos or generally unappealing in format.

3. The cover letter is generic. Often, I will see cover letters that mention one of my competitors by name. These packages go in the trash. If you are submitting a cover letter (which managers really don't read all the time, FYI) PLEASE pay attention.

4. People put stupid objectives in their resume. Objectives are old school and no longer valid. Think about it-- if you say OBJECTIVE: To have a rewarding career with room for growth..who doesn't want that? This is silly-- its too vague. Likewise if you say that your objective is a career in digital editing, but you have answered an ad for production accounting, we will say "too bad. This person wants a different kind of position." Objectives are either too broad or too limiting. So they are useless.

It is not a HM's job to give every applicant feedback about how to be a better applicant. Our job is to hire THE BEST applicant FOR OUR POSITION. End of story. There are resume writing services, job coaches and career counselors who can help give general guidance with a job search. Employers are self-interested, not altruistic. Complaining that you did not get a one-on-one debrief after each application is a waste of energy.
I actually could pick apart every single point in your argument and give the exact inverse statement from the applicant point of view, but that's not the point. NOBODY is saying that applicants are owed feedback. You are arguing points that I am not arguing against.

All I have done is give you the applicant point of view for your consideration, and I have let you know that I have been on both sides of this situation. Since I don't know you or your posting style, I assumed that you were looking for multiple points of view on a discussion board as opposed to people just jumping in and agreeing with you. But now I know next time you start a thread with a post that goes something like...doesn't this suck, I know the correct response is....yep, it sure does.
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Old 07-01-2013, 02:16 PM
 
Location: In the city
1,581 posts, read 3,289,950 times
Reputation: 2357
[quote=cowherjaw;30280439]
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatisthedealwith View Post

I actually could pick apart every single point in your argument and give the exact inverse statement from the applicant point of view, but that's not the point. NOBODY is saying that applicants are owed feedback. You are arguing points that I am not arguing against.

All I have done is give you the applicant point of view for your consideration, and I have let you know that I have been on both sides of this situation. Since I don't know you or your posting style, I assumed that you were looking for multiple points of view on a discussion board as opposed to people just jumping in and agreeing with you. But now I know next time you start a thread with a post that goes something like...doesn't this suck, I know the correct response is....yep, it sure does.

I am not the OP, but this comes across as very bitter. At least to me.

I don't know why there is this strange divisiveness on this board between the "applicants" and the "HMs". Its like the haves and the have nots. People are not born to either group and both are very permeable. I wonder that seeing oneself as an "applicant" all the time, and one who is continually searching for a job, might not be the most effective way to market yourself even if it is reality.

Again, not sure why not getting feedback is always a bad thing. It does strike me that lots of those who identify as "applicants" seem to think they are owed an explanation of why they didn't make the cut. When I have been in the "applicant " pool (and I was very recently), this did not even occur to me.
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Old 07-01-2013, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Corona the I.E.
10,082 posts, read 14,063,746 times
Reputation: 8930
I don't have a problem with no feedback as an applicant. I get it HM's are busy and concerned about liability. I may still ask, but won't hold my breath.

I take exception to some of the nonsense I have seen, and others have posted, that is rude and offensive. And this has nothing to do with lack of feedback. Issues such as making us wait 20 minutes, ripping on someone's educational and work exp., and other nonsense.
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Old 07-01-2013, 03:17 PM
 
7,422 posts, read 13,738,193 times
Reputation: 4944
yeah, i've asked for feedback, but politely, and with no expectation of a response. sometimes i get it, sometimes i don't.

i don't think someone like the woman the OP is talking about who gets angry, insists they are qualified, and demands feedback should get a response, nor are they doing themselves any favors in general.

i've experienced things pretty much 100% from the applicant side of things (i have done pre-screening of resumes for a former boss and interviewed someone one time, but that's it), but i try to be fair and have empathy for the people on the other side of the table. sure, some of them are jerks and some of the things they do are unfair. but a lot of things have solid reasoning behind them. there is a weird "us vs them" mentality on this board sometimes that is weird. especially since every single hiring manager or hr person has at one point BEEN an applicant, yknow?

and i think whatsthedealwith makes a lot of good points about how applicants trip themselves up, although obviously i think there's no harm in asking for feedback if you do it in a nice, non-defensive way and don't demand it.
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Old 07-01-2013, 03:40 PM
 
421 posts, read 822,481 times
Reputation: 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by 43north87west View Post
You might not believe it, but some companies have an adversarial culture and they attract people of that nature. Your company might not be one of them, but they'll make a gem of an employee for some other place. Some hiring managers don't even bother with people who play by the more usual rules.
Yes, like collection agencies.
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Old 07-01-2013, 05:51 PM
 
2,114 posts, read 1,870,073 times
Reputation: 2720
cowherjaw, I agree with you. While the applicant was wrong, I can also understand her viewpoint as well. I have applied for jobs I was well qualified for and couldn't understand why I was rejected. Of course there's always someone better but I can't help but feel that employers are just holding out for perfection for whatever reason.

Now, if you knowingly sent an application riddled with spelling errors and grammatical issues, then that rests on your shoulders. I always try to tailor my resume with the job description and make sure my resume is free of errors.
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:51 AM
 
Location: NJ
18,677 posts, read 17,102,113 times
Reputation: 7282
Quote:
Originally Posted by groar View Post
i don't think someone like the woman the OP is talking about who gets angry, insists they are qualified, and demands feedback should get a response, nor are they doing themselves any favors in general.
Agreed. Her actions indicate the company made a great decision avoiding her.
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:40 PM
 
Location: In the city
1,581 posts, read 3,289,950 times
Reputation: 2357
Quote:
Originally Posted by deposite View Post
cowherjaw, I agree with you. While the applicant was wrong, I can also understand her viewpoint as well. I have applied for jobs I was well qualified for and couldn't understand why I was rejected. Of course there's always someone better but I can't help but feel that employers are just holding out for perfection for whatever reason.

Now, if you knowingly sent an application riddled with spelling errors and grammatical issues, then that rests on your shoulders. I always try to tailor my resume with the job description and make sure my resume is free of errors.

You hit the nail on the head.

Employers are not just looking for ANY candidate who is qualified. They are looking for the IDEAL candidate. Do they always get it? No. But in addition to what you are like on paper, they want someone who will fit into the culture, not start lawsuits or conflicts with others, come to work and arrive on time, socialize when necessary, and generally maintain a demeanor that is aligned with whatever they consider to be necessary for growth within the organization. Rejection only means that you were not that person. You may be for another organization, but for whatever reason you failed to convince this particular employer that you were ideal.

Why is that so hard for people to swallow? Why would anyone want to try and dispute their way into a job? Personally, I always feel I am better off in situations where my skills and outlook are a fit. I have taken jobs against my better judgement and always always always regretted it.
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:10 PM
 
7,422 posts, read 13,738,193 times
Reputation: 4944
Quote:
Originally Posted by confusedasusual View Post
You hit the nail on the head.

Employers are not just looking for ANY candidate who is qualified. They are looking for the IDEAL candidate. Do they always get it? No. But in addition to what you are like on paper, they want someone who will fit into the culture, not start lawsuits or conflicts with others, come to work and arrive on time, socialize when necessary, and generally maintain a demeanor that is aligned with whatever they consider to be necessary for growth within the organization. Rejection only means that you were not that person. You may be for another organization, but for whatever reason you failed to convince this particular employer that you were ideal.

Why is that so hard for people to swallow? Why would anyone want to try and dispute their way into a job? Personally, I always feel I am better off in situations where my skills and outlook are a fit. I have taken jobs against my better judgement and always always always regretted it.
amen.

way too many people see job searches as a desperate scramble to find a job, any job, no matter what.

i mean, there are times when it is truly desperate and you need to find something to survive. that's different.

but when you have any kind of choice, why would you settle for a job you won't be able to do, that you'll be miserable at, etc? even if you're perfectly qualified for a job, would you want to work for a horrible boss or in an office culture that your personality clashes with? you can often see signs of this during the interview process and you should NOT ignore them.

and yeah, rejection's not personal. not everyone who's qualified gets an interview. some openings have dozens of qualified applicants (or more) and they're not going to interview them all. so they look at other things - set a new bar for qualifications, or go with people who have very well-written cover letters and/or resumes, or a they might apply a lot of different criteria, some of which are logical and some of which aren't.

rejection doesn't mean you were deficient, it doesn't mean the hiring manager never intended to hire anyone. it just means that you didn't meet that hiring managers standards for the top 5 (or whatever) candidates. that might be a good thing, if the hiring manager's standards are stupid! why would you want to work for a stupid manager with poor judgment?
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