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Old 07-22-2013, 05:48 PM
 
3,083 posts, read 4,654,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleasach View Post
I've read many posts from you both under this name and the other two that you have used here and I'm sorry to say but you do come off as whiny at times. You said you met the president and were so hoping they'd call your references and you'd get the job. Nothing about them telling you how stressful it would be. You said they offered x. It bothered you. So you contacted them with a request for additional time off and a salary bump. Then you said you dodged a bullet because they rescinded the offer.

You did not relay the content of the conversation so it appeared you asked for these things and they said "We are going to rescind the offer." I have seen that happen before. It's an employers market, unfortunately. The negotiation that you attempted with them had a bad result so that lends some credence to what I said. If you think this experience was the exception, I'm just trying to tell you that it happens very frequently in my world. You can dismiss it, get angry with me or whatever else, but that is the way it is with many companies today.
These assumptions of yours are absurd. This is the only user name I've had on this website. Which other names do you think I've posted under? Please tell me, I'm more than curious who you think I sound like. I'll let you know if I agree. And you better be pretty confident about that, because it's a pretty serious allegation considering it's a violation of the TOS to use multiple user names without the Mods' approval. If I were you, and you were absolutely confident of this, I'd report me and have me banned.

Do you want me to break down the entire interview process for you? You are picking up bits and pieces and acting like you have it all figured out. What arrogance! The only thing I've posted about this specific interview process (with the exception of this thread, which started out as a simple inquiry about negotiation) is A) whether I should be concerned about one of my references not answering the phone, and B) that they weren't clear about the entire interview process (and that was just one post in another person's thread). They asked me to meet with the president of the company today and I did. It's not the end of the world, but I was empathizing with others who had similar experiences. Yeah, empathy. Something you clearly know little about.

As for the bolded statement, that is exactly what happened. I called her back after considering the offer, I asked her (not demanded of her) if they were flexible on X, Y, and Z. She didn't say a thing other than, "let me talk to the team and I'll get back with you". Heck, the brief conversation was so positive that I thought it was in the bag. She called me an hour later and said simply, "our team talked, I'm going to rescind the offer because (based on your inquiries) we don't think you would be a good fit here". I asked for $1k more in salary, 10 extra PTO days, and to be paid for Labor Day holiday. Based on that info, she reasoned that, beyond a shadow of a doubt, I would not be a good fit and that the job would be too stressful for me. Puh-lease! As another poster stated, she sounded butt hurt that someone had the gall to ask for something more than what was offered. That comment was from jaypee, who is hardly a hard-nosed sympathizer with employees.

This might surprise you, but I'm not mad that this happened. In fact, I'm glad it happened. It saved me from several future headaches, I'm sure. And look at it this way. At least now you won't have to see me "whining" about another job.

Last edited by Tekkie; 07-22-2013 at 06:01 PM..
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Old 07-22-2013, 05:52 PM
 
Location: Arizona
5,509 posts, read 6,125,854 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleasach View Post
I've read many posts from you both under this name and the other two that you have used here and I'm sorry to say but you do come off as whiny at times. You said you met the president and were so hoping they'd call your references and you'd get the job. Nothing about them telling you how stressful it would be. You said they offered x. It bothered you. So you contacted them with a request for additional time off and a salary bump. Then you said you dodged a bullet because they rescinded the offer.

You did not relay the content of the conversation so it appeared you asked for these things and they said "We are going to rescind the offer." I have seen that happen before. It's an employers market, unfortunately. The negotiation that you attempted with them had a bad result so that lends some credence to what I said. If you think this experience was the exception, I'm just trying to tell you that it happens very frequently in my world. You can dismiss it, get angry with me or whatever else, but that is the way it is with many companies today.
I don't buy your last paragraph. Maybe you are in some awful industry where that is the case, but using your logic an applicants only option is to accept an offer or reject it. Thats simply not true. There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking for a reasonable adjustment to an offer. A decent employer will consider the request and either grant it, decline it, or try to negotiate. Simply rescinding an offer is completely unprofessional and uncalled for.

Certainly there are types of jobs where asking for anything other than what is offered is not customary. That doesn't mean the response is to rescind the offer.
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Old 07-22-2013, 06:01 PM
 
370 posts, read 620,303 times
Reputation: 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekkie View Post
I just finished speaking to the hiring manager and here's what I asked for.

15 PTO days right off the bat. I'm still losing out on eight with my current 23, but I'll take it.

I get Labor Day as a paid holiday even though it falls within my 90 day period.

I asked for an extra $1k on salary to compensate for lost PTO and losing my work from home privileges I have now with my current job. Why not.

She is running it by the team and will get back to me.

Thoughts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekkie View Post
Looks like a dodge a bullet......, they decided to retract the offer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekkie View Post
......... Try not to take that as if I'm belittling this company because poor, little me didn't get my way. Let's not turn it into one of those firestorms.

Secondly, I don't find your comment valid at all. I'm not an executive, but I'm certainly not a low level employee either. I have several years of experience in management roles and a college degree. This belief you have that you should not negotiate an offer shocks me, to say the least. Every job advice board I've ever come across has an entire section dedicated to the negotiation process. Heck, I negotiated in my current job and actually got an extra $1k in salary. Besides, all I did was inquire if this was a possibility to make these changes. I was hardly demanding anything. If they wanted to be professional about it, they could have easily come back and said quite simply that our offer is firm. But no, they circumvented the process altogether and retracted the offer. Personally, I feel that I'm the winner in this situation because it sounds like a terrible outfit to work for. I would have hated to find this out after giving up what I at least deem as tolerable now.

Last, but not least, the hiring manager actually alluded to the idea that this job would be extremely stressful and that, given my requests, it would not be a good fit for me. So apparently, it's an extremely stressful job and they only give you five PTO days in the first year, and 15 total is the cap. Sounds like a delight. Heck, I'll give my current employer credit where it's due. They know this job is stressful and they give their employees 23 PTO days right from the start.
You asked for 11 extra days off in your first year plus another $1K to compensate for some things that do not concern them at all.

That is fact as you presented it, and I think the problem is when you only consider things from your perspective. For all you know, there are people that have worked there a year already and proven their value who will be getting fewer days off than you, whom they barely know. Now before you work day 1, you are asking them to make exceptions to two company policies and give you another $1K for reasons that have nothing to do with working for them.

I certainly wouldn't want to accuse you of belittling this company because you:
- dodged a bullet (by not working for them)
- accused them of being unprofessional (of which I don't see evidence)
- accused them of circumventing a process (which I assume is negotiations which I always heard that both the offerer and offeree can end)
- still win because you don't have to work for such a terrible company

I'm not trying to be mean, but considering all points of view. You say you were "hardly demanding anything" (assuming you worded it that way because you're still upset); however, they obviously felt otherwise. All signs point to them as thinking that your requests (and quite possibly the way that you made them) had them labeling you as a prima donna and the people didn't want to deal with it at least for this particular position.

It's easy to say that they're inflexible and they suck. That may be the truth in general but for now, all we know is that is the way they are with you. You come off sounding like those grapes were probably sour anyway.

And I say these things in a direct but hopefully constructive manner because it sounds like a happy ending for everybody anyway, and you got a free lesson that you don't get to freeroll a negotiation counteroffer. Personally, I don't think you asked for too much, and I think it was either in the way that you asked for it or possibly that they weren't totally sold on you for the job and you asking for more was enough to tip the scales against you.
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Old 07-22-2013, 06:10 PM
 
Location: Arizona
5,509 posts, read 6,125,854 times
Reputation: 7287
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowherjaw View Post
You asked for 11 extra days off in your first year plus another $1K to compensate for some things that do not concern them at all.

That is fact as you presented it, and I think the problem is when you only consider things from your perspective. For all you know, there are people that have worked there a year already and proven their value who will be getting fewer days off than you, whom they barely know. Now before you work day 1, you are asking them to make exceptions to two company policies and give you another $1K for reasons that have nothing to do with working for them.

I certainly wouldn't want to accuse you of belittling this company because you:
- dodged a bullet (by not working for them)
- accused them of being unprofessional (of which I don't see evidence)
- accused them of circumventing a process (which I assume is negotiations which I always heard that both the offerer and offeree can end)
- still win because you don't have to work for such a terrible company

I'm not trying to be mean, but considering all points of view. You say you were "hardly demanding anything" (assuming you worded it that way because you're still upset); however, they obviously felt otherwise. All signs point to them as thinking that your requests (and quite possibly the way that you made them) had them labeling you as a prima donna and the people didn't want to deal with it at least for this particular position.

It's easy to say that they're inflexible and they suck. That may be the truth in general but for now, all we know is that is the way they are with you. You come off sounding like those grapes were probably sour anyway.

And I say these things in a direct but hopefully constructive manner because it sounds like a happy ending for everybody anyway, and you got a free lesson that you don't get to freeroll a negotiation counteroffer. Personally, I don't think you asked for too much, and I think it was either in the way that you asked for it or possibly that they weren't totally sold on you for the job and you asking for more was enough to tip the scales against you.
I completely disagree with you. Well almost completely. 11 days may have been a lot to ask for considering how stingy they were being from the beginning, but the company's response was unprofessional. Not paying a salaried employee for an official company holiday and the low amount of PTO were big red flags from the beginning. The way they handled the negotiation confirmed those warnings.

He definitely dodged a bullet. The employer probably thinks they did as well, but they're the ones who loaded the gun in the first place.
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Old 07-22-2013, 06:15 PM
 
3,083 posts, read 4,654,801 times
Reputation: 3524
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowherjaw View Post
You asked for 11 extra days off in your first year plus another $1K to compensate for some things that do not concern them at all.

That is fact as you presented it, and I think the problem is when you only consider things from your perspective. For all you know, there are people that have worked there a year already and proven their value who will be getting fewer days off than you, whom they barely know. Now before you work day 1, you are asking them to make exceptions to two company policies and give you another $1K for reasons that have nothing to do with working for them.

I certainly wouldn't want to accuse you of belittling this company because you:
- dodged a bullet (by not working for them)
- accused them of being unprofessional (of which I don't see evidence)
- accused them of circumventing a process (which I assume is negotiations which I always heard that both the offerer and offeree can end)
- still win because you don't have to work for such a terrible company

I'm not trying to be mean, but considering all points of view. You say you were "hardly demanding anything" (assuming you worded it that way because you're still upset); however, they obviously felt otherwise. All signs point to them as thinking that your requests (and quite possibly the way that you made them) had them labeling you as a prima donna and the people didn't want to deal with it at least for this particular position.

It's easy to say that they're inflexible and they suck. That may be the truth in general but for now, all we know is that is the way they are with you. You come off sounding like those grapes were probably sour anyway.

And I say these things in a direct but hopefully constructive manner because it sounds like a happy ending for everybody anyway, and you got a free lesson that you don't get to freeroll a negotiation counteroffer. Personally, I don't think you asked for too much, and I think it was either in the way that you asked for it or possibly that they weren't totally sold on you for the job and you asking for more was enough to tip the scales against you.
Okay, I'll bite.

I tried to negotiate because it's something that has always (to me anyhow) been looked at or spoken about as a must or an "it can't hurt" kind of thing.

I am honestly not upset about this. If anything, I'm shocked that they responded in such a way. I think it was unprofessional when all they had to say was "the offer is firm". That's all they had to say. This, to me, is like if a kid asked their mother for a cookie before dinner and the mom, instead of saying no, threw out the cookies. WTF! I think most rational people would describe that mother as a vindictive bit...well you get the point.

And if these people are going to get offended by a negotiation process, well then, HR is the wrong field to be in. They are going to come across A LOT more people like me, who will ask to see what they can get. These people are going to have many more years of experience and many more qualifications than I do and they are going to see five days of PTO and not being paid for a company holiday and laugh out loud. I'll stick with my 23 PTO days and paid holidays, thank you very much.

If you don't ask, you'll never know. Right? If I were demanding these things and not budging, then they would be in the right IMO. But they didn't even ask if I would still take it. Really? C'mon, that's just silly. IMO, she was making a statement, and that is: "You take what we give you and like it".

Last edited by Tekkie; 07-22-2013 at 06:28 PM..
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Old 07-22-2013, 06:34 PM
 
3,083 posts, read 4,654,801 times
Reputation: 3524
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnp292 View Post
I completely disagree with you. Well almost completely. 11 days may have been a lot to ask for considering how stingy they were being from the beginning, but the company's response was unprofessional. Not paying a salaried employee for an official company holiday and the low amount of PTO were big red flags from the beginning. The way they handled the negotiation confirmed those warnings.

He definitely dodged a bullet. The employer probably thinks they did as well, but they're the ones who loaded the gun in the first place.
You know, ironically, part of this job would have had me negotiate with vendors on pricing and what not. I was talking with a friend (a proponent of negotiating btw), who indicated earlier in the day that this might be a test to see how my negotiation skills are.

Oops!
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Old 07-22-2013, 07:56 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
13,343 posts, read 17,395,875 times
Reputation: 19654
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnp292 View Post
I completely disagree with you. Well almost completely. 11 days may have been a lot to ask for considering how stingy they were being from the beginning, but the company's response was unprofessional. Not paying a salaried employee for an official company holiday and the low amount of PTO were big red flags from the beginning. The way they handled the negotiation confirmed those warnings.

He definitely dodged a bullet. The employer probably thinks they did as well, but they're the ones who loaded the gun in the first place.

+1.

Being inflexible is not why that company sucks.
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Old 07-22-2013, 08:03 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
13,343 posts, read 17,395,875 times
Reputation: 19654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekkie View Post

And if these people are going to get offended by a negotiation process, well then, HR is the wrong field to be in.
I don't think HR is to blame here. I think it's the hiring manager's decision to take his ball and go home.
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Old 07-22-2013, 08:14 PM
 
3,083 posts, read 4,654,801 times
Reputation: 3524
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaypee View Post
I don't think HR is to blame here. I think it's the hiring manager's decision to take his ball and go home.
You're absolutely right. I was referring to HR in general, as I personally see the hiring manager and the hiring process in the category of HR. Whether or not that's technically right, I admittedly do not know.
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Old 07-22-2013, 10:33 PM
 
370 posts, read 620,303 times
Reputation: 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnp292 View Post
I completely disagree with you. Well almost completely. 11 days may have been a lot to ask for considering how stingy they were being from the beginning, but the company's response was unprofessional. Not paying a salaried employee for an official company holiday and the low amount of PTO were big red flags from the beginning. The way they handled the negotiation confirmed those warnings.

He definitely dodged a bullet. The employer probably thinks they did as well, but they're the ones who loaded the gun in the first place.
I have no idea who this employer is and whether or not they are horrible to work for or not. I can say that I am not turned on by their leave policy either, so if those were dealbreakers to the OP, he definitely should have brought them up. Since I am inferring that the OP would not want to work there given the conditions of the original offer, I don't see the fuss over whether they stood firm or rescinded the offer since the result would have been the same. I agree that retracting the offer seems a little extreme, but my spider sense tells me there is some missing information somewhere. It really seems like for them to pull the offer off the table, something turned them off beyond asking for 2 weeks plus $1K of extra free pay that they don't have to give to someone else. We will never know, but that's what it seems like to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekkie View Post
Okay, I'll bite.

I tried to negotiate because it's something that has always (to me anyhow) been looked at or spoken about as a must or an "it can't hurt" kind of thing.

I am honestly not upset about this. If anything, I'm shocked that they responded in such a way. I think it was unprofessional when all they had to say was "the offer is firm". That's all they had to say. This, to me, is like if a kid asked their mother for a cookie before dinner and the mom, instead of saying no, threw out the cookies. WTF! I think most rational people would describe that mother as a vindictive bit...well you get the point.

And if these people are going to get offended by a negotiation process, well then, HR is the wrong field to be in. They are going to come across A LOT more people like me, who will ask to see what they can get. These people are going to have many more years of experience and many more qualifications than I do and they are going to see five days of PTO and not being paid for a company holiday and laugh out loud. I'll stick with my 23 PTO days and paid holidays, thank you very much.

If you don't ask, you'll never know. Right? If I were demanding these things and not budging, then they would be in the right IMO. But they didn't even ask if I would still take it. Really? C'mon, that's just silly. IMO, she was making a statement, and that is: "You take what we give you and like it".
I mean this in the best possible way and I may go off on a couple of tangents to make a point, but now you know it CAN hurt. The rules of this employment market are not the same as they have been, and it is as foolish to assume that when employers receive dozens and dozens of applicants for a position that they must negotiate with people. Why would they if they didn't have to? It's like the old rule that real estate is a great investment because it never goes down, until it does.

Your cookie example is more apt if the mother agrees to give the kid a cookie before dinner and the kid asks for two cookies and then the mother decides that the kid gets no cookies before dinner. I have no idea if the mother didn't give the kid any cookies to teach the child a lesson about greed or if the kid threw a fit in asking for the second cookie or if the mother found out that the kid broke a vase before dinner and decided the kid didn't deserve any cookies.

My point is that if you can look at the whole situation and feel good about how you handled it. then you get to happily move on no worse for the wear. I will agree that I would have expected their response would have been more likely to just stand firm. Like I said above, I think something must have happened when you countered that really soured them on you for them to revoke it entirely and say that it wasn't a good fit.
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