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Old 07-23-2013, 03:23 AM
 
3,083 posts, read 4,665,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowherjaw View Post
I have no idea who this employer is and whether or not they are horrible to work for or not. I can say that I am not turned on by their leave policy either, so if those were dealbreakers to the OP, he definitely should have brought them up. Since I am inferring that the OP would not want to work there given the conditions of the original offer, I don't see the fuss over whether they stood firm or rescinded the offer since the result would have been the same. I agree that retracting the offer seems a little extreme, but my spider sense tells me there is some missing information somewhere. It really seems like for them to pull the offer off the table, something turned them off beyond asking for 2 weeks plus $1K of extra free pay that they don't have to give to someone else. We will never know, but that's what it seems like to me.


I mean this in the best possible way and I may go off on a couple of tangents to make a point, but now you know it CAN hurt. The rules of this employment market are not the same as they have been, and it is as foolish to assume that when employers receive dozens and dozens of applicants for a position that they must negotiate with people. Why would they if they didn't have to? It's like the old rule that real estate is a great investment because it never goes down, until it does.

Your cookie example is more apt if the mother agrees to give the kid a cookie before dinner and the kid asks for two cookies and then the mother decides that the kid gets no cookies before dinner. I have no idea if the mother didn't give the kid any cookies to teach the child a lesson about greed or if the kid threw a fit in asking for the second cookie or if the mother found out that the kid broke a vase before dinner and decided the kid didn't deserve any cookies.

My point is that if you can look at the whole situation and feel good about how you handled it. then you get to happily move on no worse for the wear. I will agree that I would have expected their response would have been more likely to just stand firm. Like I said above, I think something must have happened when you countered that really soured them on you for them to revoke it entirely and say that it wasn't a good fit.
Considering I've never interacted with you on this forum before, I find it perplexing that you have such a difficult time taking my word for it that what I said I did is exactly what I did and what I said they did is exactly what they did. It's referred to as giving someone benefit of the doubt. I think, if anything, that says more about your personal agenda or disposition against a certain type of individual than anything else.

I'll break it down for you again.

1) I met with the owner this morning for the final interview. At the conclusion of this meeting, he said they would be extending an offer to me today.

2) The manager I spoke with last week calls me and says verbatim, "I'm sure the [owner's name] already told you this morning what I already knew, and that you'd be a perfect fit with our team. So I will be sending you an offer in the next ten minutes."

3) I reviewed the offer over the course of two and half hours. In that time, I asked several friends and people on this forum (on this thread) what they thought would be a good move. Almost everyone I spoke to said to negotiate and almost everyone seemed to agree that focusing on the PTO time and the unpaid holiday was the best bet.

4) After deliberating for a little more time, I call this hiring manager back. I say almost verbatim, "Thank you so much for the offer. Most of it looks great. However, I was wondering if you were flexible on X, Y, and Z. If so, I was wondering if you could offer the following. I currently get 23 days of PTO with my current company. I know that is a generous package and therefore I don't expect you to match it. But would you be able to bump up the PTO to 15 days instead of 5? Secondly, you mentioned that I would not be paid for the Labor Day holiday because it falls within my 90 day probationary period. Would you be able to change that to a paid holiday? Lastly, based on my earlier discussion with [owner's name], I explained that my salary demands were $XYZ. Since you are offering $XYZ - $2k, would you be able to bump that up by $1k to compensate for lost PTO time?" The last request was just a shot in the dark, but I thought I'd give it a try since "it doesn't hurt to ask, right".

5) The hiring manager responds simply to my request: "Let me talk with the team and I'll get back to you on this". That's it. She said nothing else to indicate that she was taken aback by what I asked for or how I asked for it.

6) Approximately one hour later, she calls me back and says, "Hello, I spoke with the team and based on what you're asking for, we don't think this is a good fit for you. So we're going to retract the offer. This is a very intense environment, so we don't think this will be a good fit." I asked her what she meant by "intense" and she said it was very stressful. My job now is pretty stressful. My current employer acknowledges that and they give us 23 PTO days right off the bat. Her logic behind fewer PTO days is baffling. However, I bit my tongue, said thank you very much, and that was it. End of story.

Now, I broke this down in great detail for you. Does this story sound so difficult to believe or accept as truth?

It absolutely blows my mind that some of you are vehemently against the negotiation process. If all anyone is doing is asking (not demanding) what is possible, I see very little harm in that as long as what you're asking for is reasonable. The salary I requested was on the low end of the scale that they provided for the position (in fact, it was $3k from the lowest point and only $3k more than what I make now). I was trying to make a compromise on the PTO time I would be losing. And I asked that I get paid for a company holiday that I would be forced to take without pay (why would I take a job that is not going to pay me for a day that I get paid for now?) What is the big deal here?

Look, I already have a job. If they want me, it's their job to lure me with incentives to jump ship. And apparently, they didn't want me bad enough. So be it. I don't have sour grapes over that. I value my personal time, and I'm glad I will not be working for a company that values it so little that they wouldn't budge on paying me for a forced company holiday and some additional sick/vacation time over the course of an entire year.

Last edited by Tekkie; 07-23-2013 at 03:37 AM..
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Old 07-23-2013, 06:53 AM
 
125 posts, read 221,641 times
Reputation: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekkie View Post
This belief you have that you should not negotiate an offer shocks me, to say the least. Every job advice board I've ever come across has an entire section dedicated to the negotiation process.
I think the distinction is whether you negotiate BEFORE or AFTER you accept the offer. Before accepting an offer, negotiation is fair game. If you already have stated you would accept an offer as proposed, though, and then have second thoughts and want to negotiate something more, I can understand them wanting to rescind.

Not sure which applied to your situation. EDIT: Based upon your last post, it sounds like the former was the case for you.

(Of course, after you have worked at a company for a period of time and have established yourself as a valuable asset, it's fine to attempt to re-negotiate, but that is something different.)

Last edited by Goldblum57; 07-23-2013 at 07:06 AM..
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Old 07-23-2013, 07:06 AM
 
2,633 posts, read 5,525,164 times
Reputation: 2871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekkie View Post
Considering I've never interacted with you on this forum before, I find it perplexing that you have such a difficult time taking my word for it that what I said I did is exactly what I did and what I said they did is exactly what they did. It's referred to as giving someone benefit of the doubt. I think, if anything, that says more about your personal agenda or disposition against a certain type of individual than anything else.

I'll break it down for you again.

1) I met with the owner this morning for the final interview. At the conclusion of this meeting, he said they would be extending an offer to me today.

2) The manager I spoke with last week calls me and says verbatim, "I'm sure the [owner's name] already told you this morning what I already knew, and that you'd be a perfect fit with our team. So I will be sending you an offer in the next ten minutes."

3) I reviewed the offer over the course of two and half hours. In that time, I asked several friends and people on this forum (on this thread) what they thought would be a good move. Almost everyone I spoke to said to negotiate and almost everyone seemed to agree that focusing on the PTO time and the unpaid holiday was the best bet.

4) After deliberating for a little more time, I call this hiring manager back. I say almost verbatim, "Thank you so much for the offer. Most of it looks great. However, I was wondering if you were flexible on X, Y, and Z. If so, I was wondering if you could offer the following. I currently get 23 days of PTO with my current company. I know that is a generous package and therefore I don't expect you to match it. But would you be able to bump up the PTO to 15 days instead of 5? Secondly, you mentioned that I would not be paid for the Labor Day holiday because it falls within my 90 day probationary period. Would you be able to change that to a paid holiday? Lastly, based on my earlier discussion with [owner's name], I explained that my salary demands were $XYZ. Since you are offering $XYZ - $2k, would you be able to bump that up by $1k to compensate for lost PTO time?" The last request was just a shot in the dark, but I thought I'd give it a try since "it doesn't hurt to ask, right".

5) The hiring manager responds simply to my request: "Let me talk with the team and I'll get back to you on this". That's it. She said nothing else to indicate that she was taken aback by what I asked for or how I asked for it.

6) Approximately one hour later, she calls me back and says, "Hello, I spoke with the team and based on what you're asking for, we don't think this is a good fit for you. So we're going to retract the offer. This is a very intense environment, so we don't think this will be a good fit." I asked her what she meant by "intense" and she said it was very stressful. My job now is pretty stressful. My current employer acknowledges that and they give us 23 PTO days right off the bat. Her logic behind fewer PTO days is baffling. However, I bit my tongue, said thank you very much, and that was it. End of story.

Now, I broke this down in great detail for you. Does this story sound so difficult to believe or accept as truth?

It absolutely blows my mind that some of you are vehemently against the negotiation process. If all anyone is doing is asking (not demanding) what is possible, I see very little harm in that as long as what you're asking for is reasonable. The salary I requested was on the low end of the scale that they provided for the position (in fact, it was $3k from the lowest point and only $3k more than what I make now). I was trying to make a compromise on the PTO time I would be losing. And I asked that I get paid for a company holiday that I would be forced to take without pay (why would I take a job that is not going to pay me for a day that I get paid for now?) What is the big deal here?

Look, I already have a job. If they want me, it's their job to lure me with incentives to jump ship. And apparently, they didn't want me bad enough. So be it. I don't have sour grapes over that. I value my personal time, and I'm glad I will not be working for a company that values it so little that they wouldn't budge on paying me for a forced company holiday and some additional sick/vacation time over the course of an entire year.
I have no idea how this thread went sideways like this! Wow!

Ok. To your situation. I think by "intense", they mean "our way or the highway". I don't see where there was some crazy misstep on your part. To be quite honest, the hiring mgr should have just said "no, those items are not flexible" while you were on the phone with them, and let you make up your mind from there.

Although, since it's likely that they desire an environment with a rigid power structure, your simple questioning of the status quo gave them cause to move in a different direction.
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Old 07-23-2013, 07:10 AM
 
125 posts, read 221,641 times
Reputation: 91
I think the problem may have been negotiating on too many fronts. I would have stuck with negotiating for either more PTO or more pay. But you asked for 10 more days of PTO, a salary increase, and an extra paid holiday (which otherwise is paid only to those who have passed the probation period).

This, as well as the quick turn around time between your request and their rescission, makes me think they saw this as too many demands too quickly and potentially hiring a problem employee (not implying that you are one). I'm not saying what you did was wrong, but I think you would have had a better chance at success had you stuck to one point to negotiate.
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Old 07-23-2013, 07:18 AM
 
3,083 posts, read 4,665,788 times
Reputation: 3524
Quote:
Originally Posted by EzPeterson View Post
I have no idea how this thread went sideways like this! Wow!

Ok. To your situation. I think by "intense", they mean "our way or the highway". I don't see where there was some crazy misstep on your part. To be quite honest, the hiring mgr should have just said "no, those items are not flexible" while you were on the phone with them, and let you make up your mind from there.

Although, since it's likely that they desire an environment with a rigid power structure, your simple questioning of the status quo gave them cause to move in a different direction.
Thanks for the response. This thread started out as a question about negotiating. When I posted that they retracted the offer, I thought that would be the end of it. But, as is the case often times on this forum, 1-2 individuals took it upon themselves to hi-jack this and make it an "us vs. them" or "employees vs. employers" thread. I wasn't even complaining what had happened; another poster tried claiming that I was "whining" and it sort of unraveled from there.

I appreciate those people who took the time to thoroughly read and comprehend what was going on with this situation. Furthermore, thanks to you who gave me the benefit of the doubt and who did not assume the worst of me given what happened in this situation.
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Old 07-23-2013, 07:20 AM
 
3,083 posts, read 4,665,788 times
Reputation: 3524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldblum57 View Post
I think the problem may have been negotiating on too many fronts. I would have stuck with negotiating for either more PTO or more pay. But you asked for 10 more days of PTO, a salary increase, and an extra paid holiday (which otherwise is paid only to those who have passed the probation period).

This, as well as the quick turn around time between your request and their rescission, makes me think they saw this as too many demands too quickly and potentially hiring a problem employee (not implying that you are one). I'm not saying what you did was wrong, but I think you would have had a better chance at success had you stuck to one point to negotiate.
That is a certainly a possibility that they saw these inquiries as "demands", but I was simply asking if it could be done. I did not indicate to them that my acceptance was conditional upon meeting any demands. Typically, when you ask if something is possible, you expect a yes or no answer, not a complete F-U.
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Old 07-23-2013, 09:34 AM
 
125 posts, read 221,641 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekkie View Post
That is a certainly a possibility that they saw these inquiries as "demands", but I was simply asking if it could be done. I did not indicate to them that my acceptance was conditional upon meeting any demands. Typically, when you ask if something is possible, you expect a yes or no answer, not a complete F-U.
Yes, it appears they definitely could have handled it better, but I still think you would have come across in a more positive light had you stuck to one request. Just my $.02.
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:16 AM
 
15,394 posts, read 17,675,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldblum57 View Post
Yes, it appears they definitely could have handled it better, but I still think you would have come across in a more positive light had you stuck to one request. Just my $.02.
I agree with this. The $1000 pay increase is probably a drop in the bucket compared to your salary, so it probably wasn't worth mentioning. Same with the labor day pay. It's only 1 day for 2013 only.

It could have been a lot cleaner just to ask for 15 days PTO and leave it at that.

But this is a small company and it sounds like the owner calls all the shots. I think the hiring manager simply went to the owner and then the owner got a bruised ego and said 'how dare you! That's a good salary for small fry business. How dare you ask for anything more.'. And the owner didn't think logically about saying 'it's firm'. He ego got in the way and he had to let you know that HE was in charge, not you.

In reality, this owner probably is the puppet master of most things in the company. You would have been getting the same type of ego decisions from him if you were trying to get approval for vendor contracts that you had been working on. And it would likely have been awful for you to work there because the onwer makes quick decisions without thinking things through thoroughly.

It's good you found out now instead of 6 months after working there.
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:21 AM
 
3,083 posts, read 4,665,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sware2cod View Post
I agree with this. The $1000 pay increase is probably a drop in the bucket compared to your salary, so it probably wasn't worth mentioning. Same with the labor day pay. It's only 1 day for 2013 only.

It could have been a lot cleaner just to ask for 15 days PTO and leave it at that.

But this is a small company and it sounds like the owner calls all the shots. I think the hiring manager simply went to the owner and then the owner got a bruised ego and said 'how dare you! That's a good salary for small fry business. How dare you ask for anything more.'. And the owner didn't think logically about saying 'it's firm'. He ego got in the way and he had to let you know that HE was in charge, not you.

In reality, this owner probably is the puppet master of most things in the company. You would have been getting the same type of ego decisions from him if you were trying to get approval for vendor contracts that you had been working on. And it would likely have been awful for you to work there because the onwer makes quick decisions without thinking things through thoroughly.

It's good you found out now instead of 6 months after working there.
I agree with you and Goldblum. I probably asked for a lot, in their eyes, and they took it personally and therefore withdrew the offer. In the end, I was too costly for them and they were too frugal for me. It is something I will definitely take into consideration when I am dealing with a job offer negotiation in the future (i.e. choose your battles).
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:33 PM
 
371 posts, read 622,097 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekkie View Post
Thanks for the response. This thread started out as a question about negotiating. When I posted that they retracted the offer, I thought that would be the end of it. But, as is the case often times on this forum, 1-2 individuals took it upon themselves to hi-jack this and make it an "us vs. them" or "employees vs. employers" thread. I wasn't even complaining what had happened; another poster tried claiming that I was "whining" and it sort of unraveled from there.

I appreciate those people who took the time to thoroughly read and comprehend what was going on with this situation. Furthermore, thanks to you who gave me the benefit of the doubt and who did not assume the worst of me given what happened in this situation.
I read your longer post to me and combined with all the other posts you made in this thread, I have determined that you pretty much refuse to comprehend what I'm trying to convey to you. I care less about this than even you do.

I took "your word" to the point where I don't think you lied about anything, but I merely suggested you might have some perception problems on your end. I think this may be the case because:
- you say you are not trying to belittle the company, yet you did so several time in that very post and you continue to do so throughout the thread
- you continue to use the word demand when talking about your counteroffer, which can come off negatively. You even used it when explaining here that your "salary demands were $XYZ".
- the fact is you had an offer and were told you were a perfect fit; you made a counteroffer; then you were told that you are no longer a fit.

I will repeat myself because I think you missed it and say if you can look at the whole situation and feel good about how you handled it. then you get to happily move on no worse for the wear. I point no fingers and make no judgments. I simply told you what my gut feel was based upon the things I highlighted. I won't be offended if you choose to ignore it.
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