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Old 07-23-2013, 02:01 PM
 
3,083 posts, read 4,672,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowherjaw View Post
I read your longer post to me and combined with all the other posts you made in this thread, I have determined that you pretty much refuse to comprehend what I'm trying to convey to you. I care less about this than even you do.

I took "your word" to the point where I don't think you lied about anything, but I merely suggested you might have some perception problems on your end. I think this may be the case because:
- you say you are not trying to belittle the company, yet you did so several time in that very post and you continue to do so throughout the thread
- you continue to use the word demand when talking about your counteroffer, which can come off negatively. You even used it when explaining here that your "salary demands were $XYZ".
- the fact is you had an offer and were told you were a perfect fit; you made a counteroffer; then you were told that you are no longer a fit.

I will repeat myself because I think you missed it and say if you can look at the whole situation and feel good about how you handled it. then you get to happily move on no worse for the wear. I point no fingers and make no judgments. I simply told you what my gut feel was based upon the things I highlighted. I won't be offended if you choose to ignore it.
Wow, I'm sorry, but we are on two different wave lengths. I don't agree with anything you're saying, and it's not because I refuse to acknowledge where I'm wrong. I already have done that, see the post above your last post. It's because you are way off base.

Let me briefly touch base on each of your bullet points above.

First off, I'm not belittling the company. I don't care what you say, I'm not. I don't agree with how they handled the situation and I'm happy that I avoided what I foresee as a troubling situation for me personally. That is the only thing I've said about this company in this thread. When I say I "dodged a bullet", that is not belittling the company. Because I said that I felt it was unprofessional, that is not belittling the company. Do you understand? Additionally, what does this have to do with me not getting the offer? This so-called belittling happened on this forum after the fact, not during the negotiation.

Secondly, I didn't make any demands. Stop implying that this is what I did simply because I've used the word in a sentence. The only reason I've used that term throughout this thread is to describe the very thing that I did not do.

Thirdly, I would say it was more of me asking, not counter offering. Making a counter offer, IMO, suggests that I made a conditional statement. In other words, "I won't accept this job UNLESS you meet these requirements". That is not even close to what I did. I asked if they were flexible with X, Y, and Z. That's it, simple as that. If that is why I lost out on the offer, then I am much better off because I have a better situation where I work now. It's also a possibility that she misinterpreted what I was asking. Maybe she took it as me making demands. But I wasn't. And if she couldn't see through that, what does it say about their experience and policy with on-boarding?

If anything, all I did wrong was ask (NOT demand) for what I wanted. If that's a terrible offense, so be it. Regardless of what anyone on here says, negotiation is part of the job seeking process. If what they offer you is exactly what you want, then clearly no negotiation is needed. But if the offer isn't exactly what you want, there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking if certain parts can be improved upon. And in most cases, the job seeker will not be dealing with a hiring manager like this, who will take offense at the inquiry and completely withdraw your offer. This belief comes from my own personal experience, insights from experienced colleagues, and research.

Last edited by Tekkie; 07-23-2013 at 02:16 PM..
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Old 07-23-2013, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Hougary, Texberta
8,607 posts, read 11,131,703 times
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Short of wondering why you'd ask for $1000, I mean, that's .50 an hour, sort of a waste of time, and can come across as being petty. You were totally right to ask about the time though. The fact that they took their ball and went home, you probably dodged a bullet.

Leave is important, and I can appreciate them not wanting to set a precedent, but either say no, or counter. But to walk away from someone you've extended an offer to is crazy. The only other thing, if they didn't want to give you leave, and starting with five days, I can understand that they're frugal like that, I'd look for the equivalent of a week's pay as a salary bump.
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:18 AM
 
371 posts, read 623,075 times
Reputation: 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekkie View Post
Wow, I'm sorry, but we are on two different wave lengths. I don't agree with anything you're saying, and it's not because I refuse to acknowledge where I'm wrong. I already have done that, see the post above your last post. It's because you are way off base.

Let me briefly touch base on each of your bullet points above.

First off, I'm not belittling the company. I don't care what you say, I'm not. I don't agree with how they handled the situation and I'm happy that I avoided what I foresee as a troubling situation for me personally. That is the only thing I've said about this company in this thread. When I say I "dodged a bullet", that is not belittling the company. Because I said that I felt it was unprofessional, that is not belittling the company. Do you understand? Additionally, what does this have to do with me not getting the offer? This so-called belittling happened on this forum after the fact, not during the negotiation.

Secondly, I didn't make any demands. Stop implying that this is what I did simply because I've used the word in a sentence. The only reason I've used that term throughout this thread is to describe the very thing that I did not do.

Thirdly, I would say it was more of me asking, not counter offering. Making a counter offer, IMO, suggests that I made a conditional statement. In other words, "I won't accept this job UNLESS you meet these requirements". That is not even close to what I did. I asked if they were flexible with X, Y, and Z. That's it, simple as that. If that is why I lost out on the offer, then I am much better off because I have a better situation where I work now. It's also a possibility that she misinterpreted what I was asking. Maybe she took it as me making demands. But I wasn't. And if she couldn't see through that, what does it say about their experience and policy with on-boarding?

If anything, all I did wrong was ask (NOT demand) for what I wanted. If that's a terrible offense, so be it. Regardless of what anyone on here says, negotiation is part of the job seeking process. If what they offer you is exactly what you want, then clearly no negotiation is needed. But if the offer isn't exactly what you want, there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking if certain parts can be improved upon. And in most cases, the job seeker will not be dealing with a hiring manager like this, who will take offense at the inquiry and completely withdraw your offer. This belief comes from my own personal experience, insights from experienced colleagues, and research.
OK. We do differ on semantics and how we interpret things.

First, I read dodged a bullet comment AND the terrible outfit to work for comment AND the too frugal for me comment as slights/belittling. If someone said those types of things about me, I would feel offended and slighted. If you wouldn't be, then you have thicker skin than most people I know.

Second, I don't understand how you can say you only used the word demand to describe what you did not do when you clearly said that your "salary demands were $XYZ". Did I make that up or am I misinterpreting it?

Third, and probably most trivial, if someone makes you an offer of employment under a set of terms and you ask (even if it is done ever so politely and professionally) for a different set of terms, then I call that a counteroffer. There is nothing wrong with doing so, but it doesn't make sense to say well I didn't counteroffer, but I asked for more leave and salary.

Again, I never said don't negotiate. Al I said was don't assume it is necessarily a freeroll. It is also my experience, like you imply, that most places will give you a second chance at the initial offer if they choose not to increase their offer. This company didn't do that and there's probably a reason. One reason could be that they are just crazy and cheap and unprofessional. My gut is that there is just a little more to the story that we don't know, and I mean you no offense by that at all. It doesn't have to be about you at all. As you say, this belief comes from my own personal experience, insights from experienced colleagues, and research.

I wish you the best in your endeavors.
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Old 07-24-2013, 10:28 AM
 
3,083 posts, read 4,672,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowherjaw View Post
OK. We do differ on semantics and how we interpret things.

First, I read dodged a bullet comment AND the terrible outfit to work for comment AND the too frugal for me comment as slights/belittling. If someone said those types of things about me, I would feel offended and slighted. If you wouldn't be, then you have thicker skin than most people I know.

Second, I don't understand how you can say you only used the word demand to describe what you did not do when you clearly said that your "salary demands were $XYZ". Did I make that up or am I misinterpreting it?

Third, and probably most trivial, if someone makes you an offer of employment under a set of terms and you ask (even if it is done ever so politely and professionally) for a different set of terms, then I call that a counteroffer. There is nothing wrong with doing so, but it doesn't make sense to say well I didn't counteroffer, but I asked for more leave and salary.

Again, I never said don't negotiate. Al I said was don't assume it is necessarily a freeroll. It is also my experience, like you imply, that most places will give you a second chance at the initial offer if they choose not to increase their offer. This company didn't do that and there's probably a reason. One reason could be that they are just crazy and cheap and unprofessional. My gut is that there is just a little more to the story that we don't know, and I mean you no offense by that at all. It doesn't have to be about you at all. As you say, this belief comes from my own personal experience, insights from experienced colleagues, and research.

I wish you the best in your endeavors.
First, even if you take those comments as offensive, these are only things I've mentioned on this forum. I never said any of these things to the hiring manager. So I'm not quite sure why you are taking offense on their behalf? Yeah, I dodged a bullet. If I had accepted this offer as is, I wouldn't have been satisfied since it was a significant drop off from what I have now, and doesn't appear they would have been flexible down the road. Let me put it this way. When I asked for an additional $1k for my current job, they came back and gave it to me. Because they liked me and they wanted me to leave my previous job and come to them.

Given how little they were willing to negotiate now, do you think it would have been any different down the road? Probably not. They ARE frugal. That's not a bad thing or a slight, so don't take it as that. I also mentioned that I was too expensive for them, so there you have it. If I mentioned it was a terrible outfit, perhaps it was out of initial reaction to what happened. They might be a fine company to work for, I just don't think they handled this situation very fairly or professionally. So maybe it is just terrible for me. But again, that's only between you and me. I didn't tell THEM this.

Secondly, I may have inadvertently used the term "demands" throughout this thread. But again, try to comprehend this, I was not demanding anything from them. IMO a demand is when I say something along the lines of: "I want this, this, and this, or I walk". That's not what happened at all. I only asked if they were flexible on X, Y, and Z. All they had to say was no, but they didn't. As someone else mentioned, they opted to take their ball and go home.

Thirdly, this is just a different view on semantics. That's all it is. I don't believe that asking is the same as saying, "I like you're offer, but instead, I would like this or I'm out". It's the same when I go to a car dealership and ask if they are able to include an extra feature for the same price. What would you think if the salesman decided to walk away after me asking that? But maybe that IS how they interpreted it; as a demand. Our interactions as people are not black and white, they are entirely based on one's own interpretation or perception. So in this case, their interpretation didn't work in my favor.

I have a feeling that you are either a business owner or a hiring manager, because you seem to have a predisposition towards the employer in this scenario. You seem intent on making this ordeal what it's not, and that is that I did something obnoxious to make this company angry and I'm not telling you about it. I'm not upset that this happened. It was for the best. I have a better situation where I'm at now, so it wouldn't have made sense for me to work there. Would you walk away from a job where you work from home five days a week, have 23 + five carry-over PTO days a year, get paid for ALL company holidays, have summer Fridays (1/2 day Fridays), and a salary just $4k less than what they were offering for a job that offers 5 PTO days over the course of a year, will not budge on paying you for one company holiday, and won't consider upping your salary by a measly $1k? Bottom line is that I would have ended up turning the offer down if they had come back and said they weren't flexible.

Last edited by Tekkie; 07-24-2013 at 10:37 AM..
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:56 PM
 
371 posts, read 623,075 times
Reputation: 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekkie View Post
Thirdly, this is just a different view on semantics. That's all it is. I don't believe that asking is the same as saying, "I like you're offer, but instead, I would like this or I'm out".
I call what you actually did as giving a counteroffer. I call what you quoted above as giving an ultimatum. To me there's a difference.

Quote:
I have a feeling that you are either a business owner or a hiring manager, because you seem to have a predisposition towards the employer in this scenario. You seem intent on making this ordeal what it's not, and that is that I did something obnoxious to make this company angry and I'm not telling you about it.
I've been on both sides of the negotiation process. It was not my intention to defend the company nor persecute you. I have a habit (good or bad) of overanalyzing everything when something goes awry for reasons that don't seem normal. I only asked you to look carefully at yourself and your actions because it is the only variable that you control and you may be doing something inadvertently. I also conceded that if you did your self analysis and decided you were happy, then that's great. This is actually the third time I've said words to that effect.
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Old 07-24-2013, 06:43 PM
 
3,083 posts, read 4,672,115 times
Reputation: 3524
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowherjaw View Post
I call what you actually did as giving a counteroffer. I call what you quoted above as giving an ultimatum. To me there's a difference.


I've been on both sides of the negotiation process. It was not my intention to defend the company nor persecute you. I have a habit (good or bad) of overanalyzing everything when something goes awry for reasons that don't seem normal. I only asked you to look carefully at yourself and your actions because it is the only variable that you control and you may be doing something inadvertently. I also conceded that if you did your self analysis and decided you were happy, then that's great. This is actually the third time I've said words to that effect.
I am over analytical myself. I mean, just look at my post history in the last week. I created a thread asking what people thought about one of my references not responding to my phone calls (it was even titled something like "Classic Over Thinker"). A few days later, I'm creating a thread asking opinions on my job offer. My best friend once said that I can be my own worst enemy sometimes by the way I over think things.

That said, I have thought about this a lot. And if I was wrong in any way, I'd be the first to admit it. I think in this case, it was a combination of misrepresentation and misinterpretation that lead to this end result. I may have misrepresented my question about their flexibility as a demand (maybe in how I asked, or my tone of voice), and they misinterpreted my question as more of a demand.

And to answer your question, yes, I'm happy with how I handled the situation overall. In the future, I will be much more careful in how I present a question (or counter-offer as you put it) regarding an initial job offer. What I will not do is avoid asking for what I want, within reason.
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Old 07-25-2013, 12:46 AM
 
106 posts, read 146,660 times
Reputation: 204
For what it's worth OP, I agree with you wholeheartedly. It seems petty and ridiculous to withdraw an offer of employment at the mere suggestion that a candidate might be interested in negotiating.

"Please sir....can I have some more ?"
"More ?!?!! Moreeeeee ?!?? You want more ?!!"

They can stick their totalitarian upright nonsense where the sun doesn't shine. You went into Neo mode. Dodged a bullet
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