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Old 01-18-2014, 05:12 AM
 
Location: Idaho
836 posts, read 1,378,739 times
Reputation: 1554

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Wow- jwiley posts helpful inside info and all some bitter applicants can do is pick it apart for every perceived discrepancy.

Better to take to heart that this is a seasoned employer and you greenhorns may need to do a lil soul-searching about why you're not finding work.

The world doesn't operate the way you think it should; it doesn't even work the way they taught you it does. There are all kinds of exceptions, nuances and downright unfair practices going on and there's nothing you can do about.

Thank you, jwiley, for giving this great information from an employer's experiences and I hope the nitpickers don't dissuade other employers from doing the same.
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Old 01-18-2014, 06:37 AM
 
Location: St Louis, MO
4,677 posts, read 4,823,758 times
Reputation: 2971
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwiley View Post
Let me put it this way the next time I meet someone who knows everything about accounting and taxes will be the 1st time. There are thousands upon thousands of pages of IRS rules, regulations, and court rulings. The good accountants understand they do not know everything, and are willing to speak with other accountants, and no where to do the research on the questions that they do not have the answers too.
Except that is not what you said. You said that because someone is seeking a job, they can't "know everything". Those are two very different attitudes (both of which I find horrible as a job seeker, but that is okay because then I would know that I don't want a job there). There are least two dozen people that I can think of in my subfield who essentially "know everything", and off the top of my head I know at least 4 that have changed jobs in the past two years. I think what your attitude really reflects is an idea of "my field is so vast and complicated that there are no experts".
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Old 01-18-2014, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Eastern Colorado
3,768 posts, read 4,644,276 times
Reputation: 4899
Quote:
Originally Posted by sware2cod View Post
Sounds like it might be time for you to be the applicant instead of the interviewer. Maybe your heart was telling you to post this thread because it's time for you to move on to a different job. You might just be burned out with what you are doing. I bet it's pretty common.
You may be right, if I only had a job, you see I have not had a job in 4 years now, and have no plans on ever having a job again. Instead I own a business, I run my business, and it is a successful business right now, unfortunately to continue growing I have to hire people which is the least favorite part of owning my business. Which I am reminded of how big of a pain it is to hire people every time I have to run an ad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jobaba View Post
The only problem is most people do not like their jobs and are just doing it for a paycheck. So, what you really have to determine is how hard working and how much loyalty (for lack of a better word) someone has. It's hard to determine that from an interview.

It's easy for entry level people. People with a high GPA from a good school are going to work hard consistently. But you can't tell how loyal they will be.

Someone may also really like the idea of the work but hate the people or the nature of the work. My sister has her dream job on paper. But they work her too hard. She detests her job.

For others, it's a crapshoot. Interviews are always a crapshoot.

One of the problems is society pigeonholes people into doing one thing for the rest of their lives. People don't want to take a paycut to start at a lower level doing something else, and even if they did, nobody would take them on because they don't have experience and employers think they 'lack focus'. If they could let people make even lateral changes more easily, then people might like their jobs more.

But really, the best workers are those who appreciate having a job, just shut up and do the work, and never take off the rest of day for migraines and crap. Those are the people you want to hire. The people who will take orders from somebody 20 years younger than them doing relatively menial tasks at time.

You know it is funny how often I see this posted on here, and it is not just you. While most people you know may hate their jobs, most people I know actually either like or do not mind their jobs. I have no interest in hiring someone that is going to be miserable doing their job. Maybe I am lucky, but I have worked at several companies that allowed people to make lateral moves, I have even made the move myself. I have also changed my career a couple of times, people do that all the time.

As for not wanting to take orders someone 20 years younger, that is not the managers problem, that is a problem with the employees attitude. I have been in management off and on since I was 19 years old, if someone did not like having to answer to me, than there are other companies out there that may be willing to hire them, but it is not my problem.
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Old 01-18-2014, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Eastern Colorado
3,768 posts, read 4,644,276 times
Reputation: 4899
Quote:
Originally Posted by marigolds6 View Post
Except that is not what you said. You said that because someone is seeking a job, they can't "know everything". Those are two very different attitudes (both of which I find horrible as a job seeker, but that is okay because then I would know that I don't want a job there). There are least two dozen people that I can think of in my subfield who essentially "know everything", and off the top of my head I know at least 4 that have changed jobs in the past two years. I think what your attitude really reflects is an idea of "my field is so vast and complicated that there are no experts".
They are the same attitude, you are just projecting your biases differently. And no where did I say there were no experts in my field, in fact there are plenty of experts, however even the experts do not know everything.

Let me explain it this way, I have a mentor that is now 79 years old, for the last 61 years he has been in sales, sales management, and sales training. He was one of the trainers for Zig Ziglar, he is what I would classify an unquestioned expert. Every few weeks he send me an email with a link to a book on sales/management/psychology/training that he has just read and feels is something that I should be reading. You see even he understands that there is no way to know everything about any career or line of work, just like every other true expert I have ever met he works hard daily to improve his knowledge and knows there are still things to learn.

Fact is if someone walks into an interview and knows everything they would not be asking me for a job, they would be getting recruited and not have any need to apply for jobs.

Also do not worry I would not be offering you a job, as you see if you think there is a level you can get to where you no longer need to learn anything else, than I would not want you anywhere near my staff.
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Old 01-18-2014, 07:51 AM
 
3,721 posts, read 3,923,242 times
Reputation: 3366
Quote:
Originally Posted by notoriouskelly View Post
Wow- jwiley posts helpful inside info and all some bitter applicants can do is pick it apart for every perceived discrepancy.

Not everyone who has posted are applicants. Some of us have jobs

It's always better to not assume things.

Further, did you expect everyone to agree with Jwiley? If so, you have even bigger problems than not realizing that this is a discussion forum where people will never agree on the same things.
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Old 01-18-2014, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
9,011 posts, read 8,429,998 times
Reputation: 15617
Quote:
Originally Posted by notoriouskelly View Post
Wow- jwiley posts helpful inside info and all some bitter applicants can do is pick it apart for every perceived discrepancy.

Better to take to heart that this is a seasoned employer and you greenhorns may need to do a lil soul-searching about why you're not finding work.

The world doesn't operate the way you think it should; it doesn't even work the way they taught you it does. There are all kinds of exceptions, nuances and downright unfair practices going on and there's nothing you can do about.

Thank you, jwiley, for giving this great information from an employer's experiences and I hope the nitpickers don't dissuade other employers from doing the same.
I have to second this. People are wildly misconstruing the OP. He has clarified that he is not laughing at people or looking for a drinking buddy, yet bitter posters fixate upon these perceived sleights as if they are the core of the OP.

Go back and read it again. The OP was giving people a realistic inside view of hiring. Learn from it to your benefit, or dismiss it and mock it to your detriment. Your choice.
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Old 01-18-2014, 08:36 AM
 
1,305 posts, read 1,320,335 times
Reputation: 1364
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
I have to second this. People are wildly misconstruing the OP. He has clarified that he is not laughing at people or looking for a drinking buddy, yet bitter posters fixate upon these perceived sleights as if they are the core of the OP.

Go back and read it again. The OP was giving people a realistic inside view of hiring. Learn from it to your benefit, or dismiss it and mock it to your detriment. Your choice.
I think people are dissing the OP because his post really did sound condescending. I did re-read it a couple times. No matter how I look at it, it still sounds like "oh poor me, it's so lonely on the top!" kinda post.

Frankly, that's not the attitude I want to work under. Having been an employer myself, I wish the OP would understand that not everyone has had fantastic interviewing experiences. Regardless of how friendly or professional the interviewer tries to make himself, the experience would still be stressful for the interviewee. If I knew my interviewer mocks my every mistake, I would go elsewhere to look for work.

I currently work for an engineering firm. My interview was at a starbucks. My interviewer allowed me plenty of time and plenty of positive reinforcement to give me the chance. Given that I've had enough experiences to know what to say in an interview that won't make me sound like an ass, there was still a level of stress on my part.

I think a lot of people think what I'm thinking. I don't ever want to interview with someone like the OP, knowing he would mock me behind my back for mistakes due to my inexperience.
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Old 01-18-2014, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
9,011 posts, read 8,429,998 times
Reputation: 15617
Here are my thoughts, in bold, on the OP's post.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jwiley View Post
I am sorry as this may come off as a rant, as I have been interviewing people for the last 2 weeks, and I am frustrated.

Over the last few years I have been interviewing and hiring people for jobs in mortgage banking and accounting, and almost every set of interviews I have people that I interview that just do not seem to get it. Now I am not talking about showing up a few minutes early or dressing nicely, but instead I am talking about attitudes and ways some approach interviews.

Things I wish people would understand when interviewing.

While your college education or background can be very important, and you may be able to bring a new approach to the way things are done, it is never a good idea to tell the interviewer that the way they do things is out of date and have to be changed. Sorry but sometimes there are reasons that things are done certain ways, things are done different in the real world and even in different areas than others simply due to client expectations or business climate. this is simply true. If you want a job from a person who has the power to hire you, it is simply foolish to tell the HM that they are doing things wrong. There may be very valid reasons why things are done a certain way, right:wrong may simply be a matter of opinion. It might be a disputed legal interpretation, or a nuance that was never addressed school. Regardless, it is poor interpersonal relations to walk into an interview and be confrontational.

While the job title may lead you to believe you understand exactly what the job is, read the job description and take the time to listen to the interviewer to figure out if it is a job you want and can do. Job titles are different between companies and while the basic job maybe the same, the overall duties can and do range pretty drastically.common sense, straight forward advice. OP could have said 'do your research', but gave a specific action item

Understand that most of us do not like to interview a bunch of people, we do not have the want or time to spend getting to know people to find what we hope will be a good employee. Just like you we find it a chore, and most of us have been through the process numerous times on both sides and do not like being the one to say no. We would love if the 1st applicant we got was the perfect fit, but it does not work that way, instead we have to spend way to many hours sorting through everything to ensure we make the right hire.Sharing the perspective of a HM. Some people on this board think that interviews are done just to jerk people around to fulfill sadistic power trips. It is not so, and this is all the OP is saying.

Personality is important, like it or not if we do not like you or do not believe what you are telling us you will not get the job. That being said do not be fake, be yourself, usually most of us have been interviewing long enough that we can tell when you are fake, and that means no job anyways.Don't lie, but please give us a chance to get to know you.

Be careful how you treat people, in mortgages often the receptionist also acts as a personal assistant to the managers when they need help. The person calling you could be the manager, it could be the owner, it could be the receptionist, it could be an HR rep, you do not know, but if you treat that person badly or have an attitude, than your job prospects could take a serious hit. practical, common sense advice. Be polite.

Be clear to yourself and to your interviewers on what you are looking for, saying I just need a job does not cut it. Saying it will work for now is a terrible idea, and even worse saying that you parents say you need a job right now is even worse. Saying you just want to get into that career field is also not a great idea. Even if the job is an entry level job, we want to believe that you will be happy coming in and working hard. Excellent advice. Most people who are looking for jobs are simply trying to do the wage thing. This is solid, practical advice that will help you to differentiate yourself from the mob. As a HM, I understand that you would not be looking to work for me if you had millions in the bank. I wouldn't be here either. But, given the choices in the world, tell me why you want to work with me rather than assembling widgets. I want to hire the person who actually does want to work here, or at least thinks it's the best overall option.

Understand even if you do know everything we do not believe that you know everything, otherwise why would you be looking for a job, this is my biggest pet peeve. Believe it or not that to me is a red flag, which indicates a person who does not think they have anything to learn, or even worse someone who really does know everything they need to but has a bad attitude that caused them to be looking for a job today. I do not know everything there is to know about my job, nobody does, but I have hired and will usually prefer to hire those that are not even fully qualified but can show they understand their weaknesses and convince me that they will put in the work to fix those weaknesses.coming to an interview with an attitude that you know everything means that you are unwilling to learn my nuances and procedures. It means that as I try to train you, and I will train you, you will resist, make it confrontational, and we wrestle over control. Yes, I would like to hire competent, and that is what I am looking for. There is a difference between competent and arrogant.

Maybe even others in a hiring position can add to this, as I wish people would stop reading articles on the internet and go back to learning basic interview skills. Personally it makes me laugh when I see someone that is sitting out in the parking lot because they are 12 minutes early and the experts tell them to only be 10 minutes early, it also drives me crazy when I can pick up that someone has read too many of those articles.
I read this as don't sweat the small stuff. If you show up 12 minutes early, come on in. Little things like this are not going to make or break the interview, but attitude will.
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Old 01-18-2014, 09:25 AM
 
1,115 posts, read 1,998,785 times
Reputation: 2111
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwiley View Post
Maybe even others in a hiring position can add to this, as I wish people would stop reading articles on the internet and go back to learning basic interview skills. Personally it makes me laugh when I see someone that is sitting out in the parking lot because they are 12 minutes early and the experts tell them to only be 10 minutes early, it also drives me crazy when I can pick up that someone has read too many of those articles.
I don't agree with this. I'm always early (usually very early!) for whatever I need to attend and will usually sit in my car till only 5-10 minutes before the meeting time. In the case of an interview, the interviewee doesn't want to sit awkwardly in a lobby for 15+ minutes waiting for the interview, and the company staff and interviewers don't want to feel guilty about making you wait in the lobby or rushing other work they need to finish up before the actual interview time.

I see nothing wrong with sitting in your car, mentally preparing, reviewing notes, and then heading in still 5-10 minutes early.

Rest of post is good, but mostly just common sense! I wonder how people like this get jobs!
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Old 01-18-2014, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Eastern Colorado
3,768 posts, read 4,644,276 times
Reputation: 4899
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosie_hair View Post
I think people are dissing the OP because his post really did sound condescending. I did re-read it a couple times. No matter how I look at it, it still sounds like "oh poor me, it's so lonely on the top!" kinda post.

Frankly, that's not the attitude I want to work under. Having been an employer myself, I wish the OP would understand that not everyone has had fantastic interviewing experiences. Regardless of how friendly or professional the interviewer tries to make himself, the experience would still be stressful for the interviewee. If I knew my interviewer mocks my every mistake, I would go elsewhere to look for work.

I currently work for an engineering firm. My interview was at a starbucks. My interviewer allowed me plenty of time and plenty of positive reinforcement to give me the chance. Given that I've had enough experiences to know what to say in an interview that won't make me sound like an ass, there was still a level of stress on my part.

I think a lot of people think what I'm thinking. I don't ever want to interview with someone like the OP, knowing he would mock me behind my back for mistakes due to my inexperience.
When I made this post I figured there would be plenty of people misconstruing what I said, what I did not expect is the PMs that I have gotten from people in HM positions that agree with what I said but do not want to deal with the personal attacks and the misconceptions.

I have been through hundreds of interviews on both sides of the table, I fully understand that people have had bad experiences and good experience. I also do not find it lonely at the top, in fact if anything I have tired of the hanger ons and mooches that love to attach themselves to those who have worked for years to make it to where they are. My post also was not to mock others, but to point out some common things that I see often, especially the last few days.

You see I have been reading posts on here off and on for the last few months, as I over hired for my slow time and had too much time on my hands, now as things get ready to start picking up I am forced to hire people once again. Over the last few months I have read many posts from people complaining about how they are the most qualified, how they are the best candidate, how they do not understand why they do not get the jobs. They go for years without jobs and cannot figure out why. Believe it or not the way some have projected their own feelings on what I said in this thread are actual big clues in why they do not have jobs, but that is another post for another day. Some may take my advice to heart and it will help them, they will understand that we are not some faceless monster sitting in the corner office, but instead are people as well and want to hire the best people for each job, and your attitude makes a huge difference.

I posted the OP after 2 straight weeks of phone and in person interviews with people who are all basically qualified for the position I am hiring for, some of them have been struggling to find jobs for months, some have jobs now, and at the end of the day I am forced to make my decisions on who will be the best assets to my company. Outside of the girl waiting in the car for 2 minutes to arrive at exactly 10 minutes early, these are my deciding factors. Some seem to be catching that, and taking my advice to heart, others are looking for a reason to attack even projecting things as silly as me wanting a drinking buddy into my post.

As for interviewing or working for me, it is funny how many assumptions are being made about me from a simple post on a message board. My turnover is very low, always has been, even when I worked in industries where turnover was very high, mine is about half of what is expected, so while you may not want to interview with me, or work for me, many do, and the ones that do are more than likely much more happy than average.
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