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Old 01-18-2014, 09:43 AM
 
Location: 500 miles from home
30,135 posts, read 16,652,386 times
Reputation: 22664

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopefulone View Post
Not everyone who has posted are applicants. Some of us have jobs

It's always better to not assume things.

Further, did you expect everyone to agree with Jwiley? If so, you have even bigger problems than not realizing that this is a discussion forum where people will never agree on the same things.
Exactly. It's an anonymous internet forum; was the poster expecting only wild agreement? Unlikely in any internet venue but, ok. I get it ~ we all want to have our ideas validated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
I have to second this. People are wildly misconstruing the OP. He has clarified that he is not laughing at people or looking for a drinking buddy, yet bitter posters fixate upon these perceived sleights as if they are the core of the OP.

Go back and read it again. The OP was giving people a realistic inside view of hiring. Learn from it to your benefit, or dismiss it and mock it to your detriment. Your choice.
It's an internet chat forum. Reading and/or agreeing with the post will not necessarily benefit you nor will 'mocking' it lead to anyone's detriment.

Sheesh. We're taking ourselves mighty seriously these days.
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Old 01-18-2014, 09:58 AM
 
333 posts, read 326,765 times
Reputation: 465
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwiley View Post
I am sorry as this may come off as a rant, as I have been interviewing people for the last 2 weeks, and I am frustrated.

Over the last few years I have been interviewing and hiring people for jobs in mortgage banking and accounting, and almost every set of interviews I have people that I interview that just do not seem to get it. Now I am not talking about showing up a few minutes early or dressing nicely, but instead I am talking about attitudes and ways some approach interviews.

Things I wish people would understand when interviewing.

While your college education or background can be very important, and you may be able to bring a new approach to the way things are done, it is never a good idea to tell the interviewer that the way they do things is out of date and have to be changed. Sorry but sometimes there are reasons that things are done certain ways, things are done different in the real world and even in different areas than others simply due to client expectations or business climate.

While the job title may lead you to believe you understand exactly what the job is, read the job description and take the time to listen to the interviewer to figure out if it is a job you want and can do. Job titles are different between companies and while the basic job maybe the same, the overall duties can and do range pretty drastically.

Understand that most of us do not like to interview a bunch of people, we do not have the want or time to spend getting to know people to find what we hope will be a good employee. Just like you we find it a chore, and most of us have been through the process numerous times on both sides and do not like being the one to say no. We would love if the 1st applicant we got was the perfect fit, but it does not work that way, instead we have to spend way to many hours sorting through everything to ensure we make the right hire.

Personality is important, like it or not if we do not like you or do not believe what you are telling us you will not get the job. That being said do not be fake, be yourself, usually most of us have been interviewing long enough that we can tell when you are fake, and that means no job anyways.

Be careful how you treat people, in mortgages often the receptionist also acts as a personal assistant to the managers when they need help. The person calling you could be the manager, it could be the owner, it could be the receptionist, it could be an HR rep, you do not know, but if you treat that person badly or have an attitude, than your job prospects could take a serious hit.

Be clear to yourself and to your interviewers on what you are looking for, saying I just need a job does not cut it. Saying it will work for now is a terrible idea, and even worse saying that you parents say you need a job right now is even worse. Saying you just want to get into that career field is also not a great idea. Even if the job is an entry level job, we want to believe that you will be happy coming in and working hard.

Understand even if you do know everything we do not believe that you know everything, otherwise why would you be looking for a job, this is my biggest pet peeve. Believe it or not that to me is a red flag, which indicates a person who does not think they have anything to learn, or even worse someone who really does know everything they need to but has a bad attitude that caused them to be looking for a job today. I do not know everything there is to know about my job, nobody does, but I have hired and will usually prefer to hire those that are not even fully qualified but can show they understand their weaknesses and convince me that they will put in the work to fix those weaknesses.

Maybe even others in a hiring position can add to this, as I wish people would stop reading articles on the internet and go back to learning basic interview skills. Personally it makes me laugh when I see someone that is sitting out in the parking lot because they are 12 minutes early and the experts tell them to only be 10 minutes early, it also drives me crazy when I can pick up that someone has read too many of those articles.
Some good points, but I will play devil's advocate as I've dealt with my interviews on the other side in the last 2 years. First, I've seen plenty of interviewers being rude and disinterested in an interview. Just because you are offering a job doesn't mean it's right for you to think we have unlimited time to come in whenever you want us, and if we are sacrificing our time to prepare and meet with you, then show interest. I've had way too many interviews in which the person over the phone didn't seem to care.

Second, about the new ideas thing. I've seen too many people get stuck in their ways and when a younger person has an idea, you guys brush it off because he doesn't have any experience in our environment. That was a reason I left my old job as sales were down over the entire enterprise, and the way they were selling products, aka direct mail marketing, was dying. Yet, any new ideas were beaten down by management and they stayed the course. They loved talking about we need to change the course and need a fresh perspective on things, but they never wanted to take action or listen to any ideas below the top management teams. If anything, people who think outside the box and try to find new ways to improve things to bring value and growth is an asset. Sadly you sound like a person who sees it as troublemaker who doesn't follow the company's vision BS. I can understand how you don't want the interview just be some guy spouting random ideas, but getting angry that people have different ideas on a process is stupid. These ideas should lead to a conversation as the world is constantly changing, and that's why people and businesses like you say we always do it this way end up being left behind down the road.

Finally, I'm glad you look for people who aren't an expert already and need training. Sadly most companies wait for the perfect candidate which is basically they can start the job with minimal training, or have basically the done the same job elsewhere. I'm not saying hire an engineer into a mutual funds analyst position, but as a person who has market research and applicable analytical experience has been turned down numerous times for not having the same experience with the same exact software and type of data the job is utilizing is sad.
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Old 01-18-2014, 10:02 AM
 
1,305 posts, read 1,320,582 times
Reputation: 1364
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwiley View Post
When I made this post I figured there would be plenty of people misconstruing what I said, what I did not expect is the PMs that I have gotten from people in HM positions that agree with what I said but do not want to deal with the personal attacks and the misconceptions.

I have been through hundreds of interviews on both sides of the table, I fully understand that people have had bad experiences and good experience. I also do not find it lonely at the top, in fact if anything I have tired of the hanger ons and mooches that love to attach themselves to those who have worked for years to make it to where they are. My post also was not to mock others, but to point out some common things that I see often, especially the last few days.

You see I have been reading posts on here off and on for the last few months, as I over hired for my slow time and had too much time on my hands, now as things get ready to start picking up I am forced to hire people once again. Over the last few months I have read many posts from people complaining about how they are the most qualified, how they are the best candidate, how they do not understand why they do not get the jobs. They go for years without jobs and cannot figure out why. Believe it or not the way some have projected their own feelings on what I said in this thread are actual big clues in why they do not have jobs, but that is another post for another day. Some may take my advice to heart and it will help them, they will understand that we are not some faceless monster sitting in the corner office, but instead are people as well and want to hire the best people for each job, and your attitude makes a huge difference.

I posted the OP after 2 straight weeks of phone and in person interviews with people who are all basically qualified for the position I am hiring for, some of them have been struggling to find jobs for months, some have jobs now, and at the end of the day I am forced to make my decisions on who will be the best assets to my company. Outside of the girl waiting in the car for 2 minutes to arrive at exactly 10 minutes early, these are my deciding factors. Some seem to be catching that, and taking my advice to heart, others are looking for a reason to attack even projecting things as silly as me wanting a drinking buddy into my post.

As for interviewing or working for me, it is funny how many assumptions are being made about me from a simple post on a message board. My turnover is very low, always has been, even when I worked in industries where turnover was very high, mine is about half of what is expected, so while you may not want to interview with me, or work for me, many do, and the ones that do are more than likely much more happy than average.
Fair enough.

What I'm guessing is the attitude you often observe are from newly college grads. It is not uncommon for newly college grads to think they know everything even though a 5 minute conversation with them will reveal they're just regurgitating what professors told them.

About the extra 2 minutes bit, again I think it is forgivable. People with few to zero experience may zoom in on insignificant details while missing some important ones.

Case in point. I used to work as a cop. One time there was a new guy who came in thinking he knew everything. He basically memorized everything they told him in the academy. In an interview room (for violators), we're not suppose to have a gun in there. So, before entering, we would put the gun in a locker. But when the locker is empty, it doesn't matter. Why lock an empty locker? This new guy would try to tell the rest of us to lock the locker even when it was empty. There was no logic behind it. Someone in the academy told him to do this, and he thought it was the only right thing to do.

Was he a dumbass? Well, yes, for not using common sense. What's the point of locking an empty locker? But it was also forgivable. He was brand new and relying on what he's been told before by instructors was the only thing he could do.

I'm not going to tell you how to do your job. I'm sure you are very good at it already. Just keep in mind that not everyone has had the privilege to the experiences that you have under your belt.
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Old 01-18-2014, 10:13 AM
 
333 posts, read 326,765 times
Reputation: 465
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobaba View Post
The only problem is most people do not like their jobs and are just doing it for a paycheck. So, what you really have to determine is how hard working and how much loyalty (for lack of a better word) someone has. It's hard to determine that from an interview.

It's easy for entry level people. People with a high GPA from a good school are going to work hard consistently. But you can't tell how loyal they will be.

Someone may also really like the idea of the work but hate the people or the nature of the work. My sister has her dream job on paper. But they work her too hard. She detests her job.

For others, it's a crapshoot. Interviews are always a crapshoot.

One of the problems is society pigeonholes people into doing one thing for the rest of their lives. People don't want to take a paycut to start at a lower level doing something else, and even if they did, nobody would take them on because they don't have experience and employers think they 'lack focus'. If they could let people make even lateral changes more easily, then people might like their jobs more.

But really, the best workers are those who appreciate having a job, just shut up and do the work, and never take off the rest of day for migraines and crap. Those are the people you want to hire. The people who will take orders from somebody 20 years younger than them doing relatively menial tasks at time.
Honestly loyalty is mostly dead in the work force nowadays. It's a double edge sword as the people who have a high GPA have a tendency to move around a lot as they know they are valuable, and can make more money elsewhere after a little experience. Then most employers treat their employees like crap nowadays from cutting benefits, cutting training, and creating context to get rid of people for something as simple as disagreeing with a manager.

I know someone who got fired from Unilever, a hard and dedicated worker for almost 20 years. He was fired for "a lack of confidence." He asked them what that meant and they didn't give him an answer. Sadly he turned 50 shortly before he was fired, and they replaced him with a much younger guy. Anyone with common sense knows he was gone because he was getting old and worth too much to pay. Sadly we see this crap all the time. We see people who work hard and not dare to leave their current employer, but then they crap on them and get rid of them with layoffs or finding a BS reason to fire them. Why be loyal if that's the way you treat your longest serving employees?

Also your statement about the best workers who just shut up and work bothers me. It sounds like you want a bunch of yes men robots. God forbid someone thinks on their own or wants to throw a different idea from yours out there. Seriously, encouraging people to just sit there and do menial tasks for your entire work life sounds miserable. Don't tell me I'm being entitled or not. Your career is work, so there is always things you won't enjoy, but in general you need some enjoyment and happiness out of your job. Otherwise you'll just give enough effort to not get fired and get that next paycheck. The best workers aren't the yes men or people who are grateful for a job, the best workers are people who are passionate and want to grow in their positions. Your statements literally make me sick, and I get a feeling you are a person who has a sense of entitlement with your subordinates.
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Old 01-18-2014, 10:17 AM
 
Location: St Thomas, US Virgin Islands
24,671 posts, read 58,492,343 times
Reputation: 26532
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBurgh View Post
If this is what people are doing on job interviews, no wonder they are having problems landing a job.
Unfortunately, many of the responses on this thread (and countless others) are indicative of exactly what the OP is talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Staggerlee666 View Post
I don't know about this post. While the gist of it is valid, it is also a little jaded.
I didn't read it as "jaded" in the least. It was an honest post dealing with an all-too-common problem and the OP expressed very well what many of us have experienced over many years in one form or another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by notoriouskelly View Post
Wow- jwiley posts helpful inside info and all some bitter applicants can do is pick it apart for every perceived discrepancy.

Better to take to heart that this is a seasoned employer and you greenhorns may need to do a lil soul-searching about why you're not finding work.

The world doesn't operate the way you think it should; it doesn't even work the way they taught you it does. There are all kinds of exceptions, nuances and downright unfair practices going on and there's nothing you can do about.

Thank you, jwiley, for giving this great information from an employer's experiences and I hope the nitpickers don't dissuade other employers from doing the same.
Couldn't agree more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by panderson1988 View Post

Second, about the new ideas thing. I've seen too many people get stuck in their ways and when a younger person has an idea, you guys brush it off because he doesn't have any experience in our environment.
The whole point here, though, was not about generally dismissing ideas from younger people. It was about someone coming in for an interview and immediately, and with absolutely no idea how the business operation works, proceeding to tell the interviewer what should be changed. That is a vast leap from considering a suggestion from someone (of any age) who's been on the job for a while and suggests a possibly better way of doing something. That's a wholly different scenario.
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Old 01-18-2014, 10:20 AM
 
Location: St Thomas, US Virgin Islands
24,671 posts, read 58,492,343 times
Reputation: 26532
Quote:
Originally Posted by panderson1988 View Post
Your statements literally make me sick, and I get a feeling you are a person who has a sense of entitlement with your subordinates.
Did you need a bucket to catch the vomit or were you able to get to the bathroom in time? What a very odd reaction and assumption.
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Old 01-18-2014, 10:20 AM
 
333 posts, read 326,765 times
Reputation: 465
The whole point here, though, was not about generally dismissing ideas from younger people. It was about someone coming in for an interview and immediately, and with absolutely no idea how the business operation works, proceeding to tell the interviewer what should be changed. That is a vast leap from considering a suggestion from someone (of any age) who's been on the job for a while and suggests a possibly better way of doing something. That's a wholly different scenario.[/quote]


That is a fair point. I've seen people have this attitude they know everything, and not just in interviews. I've seen plenty of managers who are in their upper 20s thinking they are experts at everything and any subordinate is below them and don't know anything. That was my point, but my best and favorite interviews is allowing a discussion of different ideas and process about a certain thing. Lets be fair it'll vary from position to what tasks the job entails. So that's my point as I don't think you should dismiss people who want to talk about different ideas and processes in an interview, but it will vary to what the process or position is.
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Old 01-18-2014, 10:22 AM
 
333 posts, read 326,765 times
Reputation: 465
Quote:
Originally Posted by STT Resident View Post
Did you need a bucket to catch the vomit or were you able to get to the bathroom in time? What a very odd reaction and assumption.
Haha, it was a figure of speech. I did say the word literally, so I set myself up to be called out on that one
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Old 01-18-2014, 10:25 AM
 
Location: St Thomas, US Virgin Islands
24,671 posts, read 58,492,343 times
Reputation: 26532
Quote:
Originally Posted by panderson1988 View Post
... I don't think you should dismiss people who want to talk about different ideas and processes in an interview, but it will vary to what the process or position is.
And that too is vastly different from an applicant barging in and telling the interviewer that the business system needs to be overhauled in any respect at all. Of course (and obviously) an interview should be a two-way process - to a certain degree - but again that's a different scenario entirely.
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Old 01-18-2014, 10:32 AM
 
333 posts, read 326,765 times
Reputation: 465
Quote:
Originally Posted by STT Resident View Post
And that too is vastly different from an applicant barging in and telling the interviewer that the business system needs to be overhauled in any respect at all. Of course (and obviously) an interview should be a two-way process - to a certain degree - but again that's a different scenario entirely.
Fair point, and I feel like we are generalizing what the interview is as I've seen interviews vary all over the board. Some feel like a press conference in which it's just Q/A, and others allow more discussion or openness to ideas and seeing your thought process. Finally some are worthless with a bunch of questions like, "Describe three weaknesses" and "what do you do for fun?" The three weakness or adjectives to describe myself doesn't indicate to me who they really are. The people who ask that to me think they can get a sense how someone is in three words or phrases. To me there needs to be discussion about your skills and capabilities, then I think there needs to be some openness and way to get a sense of their ideas and thought process. Again, it will vary from job to job. A job for an admin position won't require much discussion about ideas with the exception of finding out if you improve any process in the past.
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