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Old 01-18-2014, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Kalamalka Lake, B.C.
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This is a great thread. How do you nominate a thread for "best"???

I hire everyone based on their sense of humor, if the tasks don't require more than functional literacy and math.
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Old 01-18-2014, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Eastern Colorado
3,768 posts, read 4,645,151 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panderson1988 View Post
Some good points, but I will play devil's advocate as I've dealt with my interviews on the other side in the last 2 years. First, I've seen plenty of interviewers being rude and disinterested in an interview. Just because you are offering a job doesn't mean it's right for you to think we have unlimited time to come in whenever you want us, and if we are sacrificing our time to prepare and meet with you, then show interest. I've had way too many interviews in which the person over the phone didn't seem to care.
That is a very good point, and something that drove me crazy as a person being interviewed, which is one reason I look at all the resumes before I consider interviewing someone, if it is not someone I could see myself hiring, than I am not going to waste their time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by panderson1988 View Post
Second, about the new ideas thing. I've seen too many people get stuck in their ways and when a younger person has an idea, you guys brush it off because he doesn't have any experience in our environment. That was a reason I left my old job as sales were down over the entire enterprise, and the way they were selling products, aka direct mail marketing, was dying. Yet, any new ideas were beaten down by management and they stayed the course. They loved talking about we need to change the course and need a fresh perspective on things, but they never wanted to take action or listen to any ideas below the top management teams. If anything, people who think outside the box and try to find new ways to improve things to bring value and growth is an asset. Sadly you sound like a person who sees it as troublemaker who doesn't follow the company's vision BS. I can understand how you don't want the interview just be some guy spouting random ideas, but getting angry that people have different ideas on a process is stupid. These ideas should lead to a conversation as the world is constantly changing, and that's why people and businesses like you say we always do it this way end up being left behind down the road.
I have been told that I am a very different person than most, you see I fully understand that innovations are always occurring, none of us are perfect, no company is perfect, and new ideas ways of doing things are always coming around. Approaching things with your bosses as an employee is difficult but a good boss will listen and work to implement changes that make sense. My point was and still is the time and place for that is not in an interview, especially when you demand that things will be done your way. I do not know you, I have not set down and had a discussion with you, and I will not be doing things your way just because you think you have a better idea. If you want to take the time to listen to why things are done a certain way, and than convince me your way is better we will do it.

You see people are taking snippets out of the OP and making decisions on who I am, but not understanding that I am a big believer in attitude, it is the simple truth that if you do not understand the problem the process is in place to solve, than how are you going to tell me a new way to solve the problem?
Quote:
Originally Posted by panderson1988 View Post
Finally, I'm glad you look for people who aren't an expert already and need training. Sadly most companies wait for the perfect candidate which is basically they can start the job with minimal training, or have basically the done the same job elsewhere. I'm not saying hire an engineer into a mutual funds analyst position, but as a person who has market research and applicable analytical experience has been turned down numerous times for not having the same experience with the same exact software and type of data the job is utilizing is sad.
Part of the reasoning behind my OP is that I disagree with you, while I think agree many companies are looking for the perfect fit, I know some are not. I know of many companies that force their new hires into a training program regardless of your past experience, I even know of guys that have been through month long training classes that could have taught the class better than the instructor. Those companies are out there.

Instead of having the perfect fit, many of them hire based on the same thing I try to hire on. Not the perfect fit, but the perfect attitude. you see I grew up poor, I never had the benefits of great family connections, I did not have anybody to pay for my college, and I was not the best student in high school. I can tell you stories and have posted some of them on this very board in the past of the things I have went through to build my career. There are some of us out there that not only will give someone a chance at a career change, but if you convince us that it is what you truly want to do, you have the right attitude to get it done, and you can convince us that you have the aptitude to do the job, we will hire you. However if you have a bad attitude, you think that your background entitles you to a job I am hiring you for, or you do not treat my current people well, than I have no interest in hiring you.
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Old 01-18-2014, 11:08 AM
 
333 posts, read 326,765 times
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[quote=jwiley;33074119

Part of the reasoning behind my OP is that I disagree with you, while I think agree many companies are looking for the perfect fit, I know some are not. I know of many companies that force their new hires into a training program regardless of your past experience, I even know of guys that have been through month long training classes that could have taught the class better than the instructor. Those companies are out there.

Instead of having the perfect fit, many of them hire based on the same thing I try to hire on. Not the perfect fit, but the perfect attitude. you see I grew up poor, I never had the benefits of great family connections, I did not have anybody to pay for my college, and I was not the best student in high school. I can tell you stories and have posted some of them on this very board in the past of the things I have went through to build my career. There are some of us out there that not only will give someone a chance at a career change, but if you convince us that it is what you truly want to do, you have the right attitude to get it done, and you can convince us that you have the aptitude to do the job, we will hire you. However if you have a bad attitude, you think that your background entitles you to a job I am hiring you for, or you do not treat my current people well, than I have no interest in hiring you.[/quote]


I like how you don't find the perfect fit, you find people who you think would be a good worker and are trainable. I was turn down on a job despite having a good connection to my potential boss, showing interests and skills, but they decided to pursue someone who would require minimal training. That is what they said, "minimal training." So often I've had plenty of rejections because I don't have enough experience with one specific thing. I'm only 25, but I've been let go at my first post college job for various reasons including "not reading the email about a group lunch outing." Then I quit my last job as it wasn't a good fit for me.

My previous job was basically a cold sales position as I sold collectables (made by top artists in a Chinese factory) through direct mail. I left that job for a few reasons. First because they fired the guy who was training me. I found out they fired him because he didn't meet the manager eye to eye on everything, and then created context by making him fail on purpose. Then when I had issues with a technical process, and the issues I was having was things not working properly which put me behind schedule, my manager did a 180. A good example is she wanted me to create a new report to show our cross buying performance, and I had a deadline to have a finalized report and rough draft. I got my rough draft done several days early, but they took a week to get back to me despite emails asking for input. Then after their criticism by her and my dotted line boss, I ask when I can meet them again to get more input to get the final report done on time, and she literally said, "My schedule doesn't affect your deadlines." I needed her input to get a final report done, but she said her schedule doesn't reflect my deadlines? That is not a good way to treat your employees. And several times after my struggle with the technical project she blew me off when I had questions or concerns. I knew that is the way she treated the other employee who got fired, and I felt uncomfortable along with being unhappy with the work I was engage with that I turn in my two weeks after 5 months and taking my chances getting into a job I want to do.

I had the mentality I should take any job and just accept it as work, but I feel like that was the wrong attitude. I'm hoping I will nab this one job I've been interviewing with as I'll be having a final interview soon, and so far the interviews have gone well as I've shown my skills, thought process, and importantly different ideas and what I see on the company's website. This is an SEO position which I've done some work in the past, and I enjoy it as it's a very dynamic and changing field. Especially when it comes to the research and analytical aspects of the job. The reason there is interest in me is I show passion and interest in the work. I just hope they don't think my short employment at my previous employment to me being let go at a start up won't hinder my chances, and I've had plenty of places saying they want people with more experience specifically tied to certain aspects like Adwords.

I appreciate how you give some insight and how you hire people as you seem to be in the old school of approaching potential employees which is lacking nowadays in a lot of places.
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Old 01-18-2014, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Eastern Colorado
3,768 posts, read 4,645,151 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panderson1988 View Post
Fair point, and I feel like we are generalizing what the interview is as I've seen interviews vary all over the board. Some feel like a press conference in which it's just Q/A, and others allow more discussion or openness to ideas and seeing your thought process. Finally some are worthless with a bunch of questions like, "Describe three weaknesses" and "what do you do for fun?" The three weakness or adjectives to describe myself doesn't indicate to me who they really are. The people who ask that to me think they can get a sense how someone is in three words or phrases. To me there needs to be discussion about your skills and capabilities, then I think there needs to be some openness and way to get a sense of their ideas and thought process. Again, it will vary from job to job. A job for an admin position won't require much discussion about ideas with the exception of finding out if you improve any process in the past.
As STT said you are talking about a different scenario. I will tell you this about my interview technique, I do not want a q & a session to be the entire discussion, instead I usually may ask a handful of questions, but for the most part things are a discussion, primarily because I want to understand how people's minds work. I can read qualifications on your resume, I can verify how good of an employee you are from your previous employers. What I cannot get is how bad you want the job, if you can think on your feet, whether you will fit with my clients and the other staff in the office. that is what I try to get out of an interview. I want the interviewee to understand what the job entails, and to understand how the office works, and that there are processes in place that will take time to learn and understand so that they can make a decision on whether it is something they would even really want to do.

As for the comment I made that some will tell me how they are going to change my processes, it is not that they want to change the process. It is the fact that in an interview while I am going over what the job entails and about the processes they decide to tell me that they will do things a certain way.

Now part of the reason I get these reactions is that for the most part we have already had a discussion for 30 minutes or so about life and what they are looking for in their careers, and how I can help them get there.

The problem is that when it happens 9 times out of 10 I am not asked why I do something a certain way, such as my insistence that every tax return is printed and gone over by another qualified person to catch any entry errors avoiding as many mistakes as possible, instead they say well we should change that and just double check everything on the computer. Honestly I could do that, and yes it would save me money, however there is a reason I insist on using my process, and the results are that my return reject and preparer errors are considerably lower than industry average. my clients know that we do everything in our power to get things right the 1st time.

But instead of having a conversation on why, they assume they know why, and that I am just doing it the old way, and need to be told how to be brought up to speed on the new ways. I know the new ways. Sometimes the new ways are great but sometimes there is value in the old ways, and if you do not understand that than taking the time to have a conversation on the why makes much more sense than to make an assumption and decide you are changing it.
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Old 01-18-2014, 11:36 AM
MJ7
 
6,221 posts, read 8,652,012 times
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I agree with this, it's always a two-way road. The employee offers you new ways of doing things and you offer them the same in return. It should be an open-minded experience from both parties involved, not weighted one way or the other. The problem is you encounter egos and attitudes, in my experience it is the older generations that are stubborn and not open to new approaches, this is when the younger people like myself demonstrate the new techniques through their actions, get everyone on-board and they will make the leap.
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Old 01-18-2014, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Eastern Colorado
3,768 posts, read 4,645,151 times
Reputation: 4899
Quote:
Originally Posted by panderson1988 View Post
I like how you don't find the perfect fit, you find people who you think would be a good worker and are trainable. I was turn down on a job despite having a good connection to my potential boss, showing interests and skills, but they decided to pursue someone who would require minimal training. That is what they said, "minimal training." So often I've had plenty of rejections because I don't have enough experience with one specific thing. I'm only 25, but I've been let go at my first post college job for various reasons including "not reading the email about a group lunch outing." Then I quit my last job as it wasn't a good fit for me.

My previous job was basically a cold sales position as I sold collectables (made by top artists in a Chinese factory) through direct mail. I left that job for a few reasons. First because they fired the guy who was training me. I found out they fired him because he didn't meet the manager eye to eye on everything, and then created context by making him fail on purpose. Then when I had issues with a technical process, and the issues I was having was things not working properly which put me behind schedule, my manager did a 180. A good example is she wanted me to create a new report to show our cross buying performance, and I had a deadline to have a finalized report and rough draft. I got my rough draft done several days early, but they took a week to get back to me despite emails asking for input. Then after their criticism by her and my dotted line boss, I ask when I can meet them again to get more input to get the final report done on time, and she literally said, "My schedule doesn't affect your deadlines." I needed her input to get a final report done, but she said her schedule doesn't reflect my deadlines? That is not a good way to treat your employees. And several times after my struggle with the technical project she blew me off when I had questions or concerns. I knew that is the way she treated the other employee who got fired, and I felt uncomfortable along with being unhappy with the work I was engage with that I turn in my two weeks after 5 months and taking my chances getting into a job I want to do.

I had the mentality I should take any job and just accept it as work, but I feel like that was the wrong attitude. I'm hoping I will nab this one job I've been interviewing with as I'll be having a final interview soon, and so far the interviews have gone well as I've shown my skills, thought process, and importantly different ideas and what I see on the company's website. This is an SEO position which I've done some work in the past, and I enjoy it as it's a very dynamic and changing field. Especially when it comes to the research and analytical aspects of the job. The reason there is interest in me is I show passion and interest in the work. I just hope they don't think my short employment at my previous employment to me being let go at a start up won't hinder my chances, and I've had plenty of places saying they want people with more experience specifically tied to certain aspects like Adwords.

I appreciate how you give some insight and how you hire people as you seem to be in the old school of approaching potential employees which is lacking nowadays in a lot of places.

Believe it or not I am not that much older than you are, and am still young enough to remember my struggles. One of the things that I had when I was young was an ability to see where I wanted to go, and than work backwards to get it. I do not know where it came from, but my mother will tell you I had it very young as it would drive her crazy in the way I would eventually get what I wanted and often nobody would realize I was even up to something.

I as well as most people have job hopped at different points in our lives, most of us make mistakes in our career direction especially when we are figuring out what we want to do with our lives. Most of us have also had bosses that were not so good, it all happens.

I do not know much about the SEO companies, I understand what they do, and the need for them, but I have no idea on the structure or even who is running most of them. The thing is you have to decide where you want to go and work backwards, figure out what position you have to start in where you are reasonably qualified, and work your way there. You may have to work your way through several companies and interviews before one will take a chance, but they are out there, from there you just have to work hard enough to make them happy they took the chance.
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Old 01-18-2014, 12:28 PM
 
6,545 posts, read 3,099,024 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ7 View Post
I agree with this, it's always a two-way road. The employee offers you new ways of doing things and you offer them the same in return. It should be an open-minded experience from both parties involved, not weighted one way or the other. The problem is you encounter egos and attitudes, in my experience it is the older generations that are stubborn and not open to new approaches, this is when the younger people like myself demonstrate the new techniques through their actions, get everyone on-board and they will make the leap.
This is sometimes true; however, you cant do that in an interview. You're only going to be successful doing that once you get the job, earn peoples respect/trust and persuade them to make the change.

The interview is the time to show you have creative ideas or the ability to review and understand the existing process and identify improvements. Its also the time to demonstrate you understand change management.

For every person who stubbornly resists change, there's another person who wildly embraces change with chaos trailing behind them. Most managers don't want to hire either sort. The best place to be as an interviewee is the place that demonstrates you understand this.
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Old 01-18-2014, 01:02 PM
 
333 posts, read 326,765 times
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Originally Posted by jwiley View Post
Believe it or not I am not that much older than you are, and am still young enough to remember my struggles. One of the things that I had when I was young was an ability to see where I wanted to go, and than work backwards to get it. I do not know where it came from, but my mother will tell you I had it very young as it would drive her crazy in the way I would eventually get what I wanted and often nobody would realize I was even up to something.

I as well as most people have job hopped at different points in our lives, most of us make mistakes in our career direction especially when we are figuring out what we want to do with our lives. Most of us have also had bosses that were not so good, it all happens.

I do not know much about the SEO companies, I understand what they do, and the need for them, but I have no idea on the structure or even who is running most of them. The thing is you have to decide where you want to go and work backwards, figure out what position you have to start in where you are reasonably qualified, and work your way there. You may have to work your way through several companies and interviews before one will take a chance, but they are out there, from there you just have to work hard enough to make them happy they took the chance.
You make a good point, and that is how I am approaching it. I even turn down a job offer as I had some uneasiness about the job and place. I don't expect getting a manger job at a fortune 100 company. I'm just trying to get a position I want to develop in and go down a career path I want to at this stage in my life. Maybe in 10 years I might have a different mindset on what I want to do, but right now in my stage of life I feel like it's important to figure out where you want to go with your career. Especially nowadays how every position is design for you to stay in the same type of role for years, but hopefully when the economy gets better the strict requirements are loosen up and more emphasis on finding people who are trainable and could grow into the role over finding people who can already do the role perfectly.
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Old 01-18-2014, 10:18 PM
 
Location: MN
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Okay OP, I'm going to take you at your word then. I've gone into interviews with the attitude that I do NOT know a lot, but have always communicated that I am going to learn and I have skills that can be to the employer's benefit.

Before an interview, I always make sure to research ahead of time. I read up on the company, try to get a sense of their business model from their website or other information I get my hands on and do research on what that specific part of the industry accomplishes. When I'm asked "why do you want this job?" I give a cogent response that actually conveys why. I'd also say job titles are ambiguous at best, and there's a reason why you do the research on the position and the company. These are common sense things to me.

However, I have also learned that while you as the hiring manager may be frustrated with the lack of reasonable applicants, many qualified applicants are just as frustrated. A lot of us have the skills, personality, and attitude you're looking for yet we do not get the job offers. Why?

For myself, I know there are possible reasons why I didn't receive job offers. I have little experience-- which is why I apply for entry level positions yet during the interview find out they want someone well above entry level. I am transitioning from a different field, which I've learned raises red flags about my intentions for changing careers (even though the average person changes careers more than once during their lifetime???) and get drilled endlessly about my degree. What I'm doing to fix that problem is going to school again and am hoping it helps, along with volunteering for experience. When I'd receive "the phone call," I'd always ask what I can do to become a more qualified candidate. I get NO response but "well, the team/we/hiring manager/recruiter decided to go with a different candidate." Tell me, how am I supposed to ever be in the same league as the better candidates if the constructive feedback I specifically ask for is never communicated?

I couldn't even get a paid part-time internship because I was "unqualified" and "not a good fit." Okay, so how do I become qualified and a good fit? If I can't get the experience from an internship how else can I change my qualities to be gainfully employed in the future?

One of my relatives has told me she's talked to various recruiters who all have the opposite problem-- they come across applicants who are incredibly qualified yet cannot obtain employment because for whatever reason, the employer doesn't want them. What do employers want then?

Yes, a lot of applicants including myself, are jaded. My attitude towards the job search was much, much worse than it is now. I know I'm going to have to get back into it by the end of spring. I'm not really as hopeful as I should be because I have no idea if I'll be qualified.
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Old 01-18-2014, 10:51 PM
 
333 posts, read 326,765 times
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Okay OP, I'm going to take you at your word then. I've gone into interviews with the attitude that I do NOT know a lot, but have always communicated that I am going to learn and I have skills that can be to the employer's benefit.

Before an interview, I always make sure to research ahead of time. I read up on the company, try to get a sense of their business model from their website or other information I get my hands on and do research on what that specific part of the industry accomplishes. When I'm asked "why do you want this job?" I give a cogent response that actually conveys why. I'd also say job titles are ambiguous at best, and there's a reason why you do the research on the position and the company. These are common sense things to me.

However, I have also learned that while you as the hiring manager may be frustrated with the lack of reasonable applicants, many qualified applicants are just as frustrated. A lot of us have the skills, personality, and attitude you're looking for yet we do not get the job offers. Why?

For myself, I know there are possible reasons why I didn't receive job offers. I have little experience-- which is why I apply for entry level positions yet during the interview find out they want someone well above entry level. I am transitioning from a different field, which I've learned raises red flags about my intentions for changing careers (even though the average person changes careers more than once during their lifetime???) and get drilled endlessly about my degree. What I'm doing to fix that problem is going to school again and am hoping it helps, along with volunteering for experience. When I'd receive "the phone call," I'd always ask what I can do to become a more qualified candidate. I get NO response but "well, the team/we/hiring manager/recruiter decided to go with a different candidate." Tell me, how am I supposed to ever be in the same league as the better candidates if the constructive feedback I specifically ask for is never communicated?

I couldn't even get a paid part-time internship because I was "unqualified" and "not a good fit." Okay, so how do I become qualified and a good fit? If I can't get the experience from an internship how else can I change my qualities to be gainfully employed in the future?

One of my relatives has told me she's talked to various recruiters who all have the opposite problem-- they come across applicants who are incredibly qualified yet cannot obtain employment because for whatever reason, the employer doesn't want them. What do employers want then?

Yes, a lot of applicants including myself, are jaded. My attitude towards the job search was much, much worse than it is now. I know I'm going to have to get back into it by the end of spring. I'm not really as hopeful as I should be because I have no idea if I'll be qualified.
I've experience the same thing as you mention. I understand OP's issues and his point, and he actually has a good idea what he wants and looks for people who can be trainable and are dedicated to his job. Sadly most employers are utilizing the "hire slow fire fast" philosophy. The idea behind that view is get rid of people who aren't a good fit quickly, which in reality has translate to the smallest errors that won't mean anything in the long run to the manager not liking how someone had a different idea from theirs to hating how they prove them wrong on something.

Then they hire slow as they want the absolute perfect candidate. Here is my problem with that view as they say it costs a lot of money to bring a new employee. That is true, but the amount of time and money wasted on third party staffing agencies to corporate recruiters who know nothing about the position or can answer any specific questions has to be staggering. The fact most recruiters who can't answer your questions and always answer, "you know, that is a great question for the hiring manager." What is sadder is the recruiters seem to pick everyone. I've been recommend for positions that I don't meet the standards, and I'm talking about positions that require several more years of experience then I have. And to their shock they are surprise the employer doesn't want me. It makes me question why are companies trusting their initial steps with recruiters who seem to lack reading comprehension, can't answer any specific questions, and worst of all waste everyone's time.

Beyond the recruiters we have long interview and application process. Too much time and money spent on these worthless personality tests to extensive online apps setup by a major software provider. The online apps have become like tax forms. I can understanding wanting information like your dates and your duties, but why can't they just accept my resume? Worse of all they use this software to weed out apps by keyword searching. I've seen plenty of good people get passed up by their system as they didn't use a certain word so many times, and because of the setup some employers are surprise they don't get many "qualified" candidates as they set the parameters too high. Then they rely on personality tests like rating your teamwork on a scale 1 to 5. Yeah, I'm sure everyone is soooooo honest with that question. "But don't worry, a scale rating proves it's foolproof!" That is the type of logic that some people have setting up this process.

Then the amount of interviews is ridiculous too. I had one position that had at least 5 interviews. First with an external recruiter, then with another external recruiter, then with corporate recruiter number 1 on the phone, then with corporate recruiter number 2, then with a hiring manager which I didn't make it to that stage of the interview. Who knows, that might have lead to another interview or two. Then I've had interview process in which I would meet with VPs to COOs who I wouldn't work with or report to. Why? Why are we wasting theirs, and even worse my time? One interview had to bring the COO from Philadelphia to Chicago to meet with me as the position was located in Chicago. That is the biggest waste of time and money I've ever seen. Seriously think about it. Companies talk about taking time to find the best employee as it's costly to bring people on, yet they wait and wait while their current staff is overwhelm and falls behind schedule which costs money. Then the money spent on external staffing agencies, application software, and personality tests is a lot of money thrown into a hole when it should be handled by themselves. Then the amount of interviews and people involved cost time and money. My suggestion is cut back on all the wasted money on the application and interview process and focus on finding people who seem passionate and are trainable for these entry level positions.
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