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Old 09-11-2016, 02:17 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
3,310 posts, read 1,657,568 times
Reputation: 3575

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
Yea but I would bet money that the majority of the cuts will be due to attrition and retirements (not good for someone trying to get in). But once you make it in its highly unlikely they will do draconian lay offs putting late 20 to early 30 something families out on the streets like a private company would do in a heart beat if it meant a second summer home and they could get away with it without damaging the company.


THAT is the major difference, it is how they do the lay offs and who is getting laid off, getting an early retirement package is a far different thing from being laid off 5-10 years into a career and have to pack up the family and leave the state with what ever you have managed to save.


Also in a shut down you just take an unpaid vacation. The consequences are FAR different between what the fed govt does and what private companies are within their rights to do (ie at will). Could the fed govt start getting as draconian as private companies, I suppose but its never happened ... ever where as companies do it all the time ... put people out on their a$$ with no parachute.
Yeah, you're right that a shutdown isn't the worst thing. I just think that the federal government is due for a major contraction. You are correct that it could come through retirements (and not refilling those positions) and potentially contracting smaller units, rather than massive layoffs. I think the contraction will be slow, so I would agree it probably would still be more stable than private industry for most fields of work.
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Old 09-11-2016, 04:19 PM
 
6,853 posts, read 3,722,997 times
Reputation: 18093
Quote:
Originally Posted by personone View Post
Yeah, you're right that a shutdown isn't the worst thing. I just think that the federal government is due for a major contraction. You are correct that it could come through retirements (and not refilling those positions) and potentially contracting smaller units, rather than massive layoffs. I think the contraction will be slow, so I would agree it probably would still be more stable than private industry for most fields of work.


The biggest problem with this is they want to create a smaller workforce, but expect everything to be done, perfectly. Of course something has to give, somewhere, so wherever that "breakage" is becomes a national spectacle with every member of Congress piling on about how they will personally ensure it never happens again. To avoid that, management does one of two things, sometimes both: drive more and more uncompensated OT (yes, there are rules against it but that doesn't stop them from doing it) and hire contractors at significantly higher cost to do the uncovered work.


Remember that: Every time a politician says they will "cut the size of government" what they really mean is create the illusion of cuts by replacing government employees with high cost contractors. And don't be fooled by the claim of avoiding retirement costs. Nope, gov pays those as part of the contract. And those services contracts never end. They just change names and keep on going with the same workforce.
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Old 09-11-2016, 06:09 PM
 
1,183 posts, read 762,515 times
Reputation: 3403
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
The biggest problem with this is they want to create a smaller workforce, but expect everything to be done, perfectly. Of course something has to give, somewhere, so wherever that "breakage" is becomes a national spectacle with every member of Congress piling on about how they will personally ensure it never happens again. To avoid that, management does one of two things, sometimes both: drive more and more uncompensated OT (yes, there are rules against it but that doesn't stop them from doing it) and hire contractors at significantly higher cost to do the uncovered work.


Remember that: Every time a politician says they will "cut the size of government" what they really mean is create the illusion of cuts by replacing government employees with high cost contractors. And don't be fooled by the claim of avoiding retirement costs. Nope, gov pays those as part of the contract. And those services contracts never end. They just change names and keep on going with the same workforce.
thanks for posting this, especially the part about retirement for contractors. that's a little bit of info that mostly gets omitted.
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Old 09-12-2016, 12:36 PM
 
6,942 posts, read 3,066,967 times
Reputation: 4425
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
The biggest problem with this is they want to create a smaller workforce, but expect everything to be done, perfectly. Of course something has to give, somewhere, so wherever that "breakage" is becomes a national spectacle with every member of Congress piling on about how they will personally ensure it never happens again. To avoid that, management does one of two things, sometimes both: drive more and more uncompensated OT (yes, there are rules against it but that doesn't stop them from doing it) and hire contractors at significantly higher cost to do the uncovered work.


Remember that: Every time a politician says they will "cut the size of government" what they really mean is create the illusion of cuts by replacing government employees with high cost contractors. And don't be fooled by the claim of avoiding retirement costs. Nope, gov pays those as part of the contract. And those services contracts never end. They just change names and keep on going with the same workforce.
The thing is as private sector gets more and more draconian it will be either govt jobs programs or massive welfare state. I mean at the end of the day our nation has a population and unless the govt is going to tax major companies at huge rates(90% +) to pay for socialized housing and other goods then people will need jobs, real jobs to make a living.


So we will either become 3rd world or the govt is going to have to make up the short fall in govt jobs with corporate taxes. There is really no way around it. I would rather people have govt jobs doing something than just collecting money to sit around.


As long as the govt keeps taxes low for mega corps and makes up the difference through printing out of thin air things are going to keep deteriorating at a rapid pace. If companies want to deal harshly with people then they need to pay it on the back end in taxes to take care of the people who's markets they are exploiting.
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Old 09-12-2016, 12:44 PM
 
6,942 posts, read 3,066,967 times
Reputation: 4425
Quote:
Originally Posted by old fed View Post
thanks for posting this, especially the part about retirement for contractors. that's a little bit of info that mostly gets omitted.
That's why contract rolls are far less desirable to a federal GS position because there is no job security and no retirement package. Plus the job shop is getting most of cost premium not the employee so the employee has no real way to hedge against the inevitable lay off once the job is done, they are left scrambling to find another gig because the job shop took all their gravy that may have gave them 6 months to a year of extra income to find a new gig. Its not like a given area is every flush with govt gigs so as a contractor its a highly unstable life style that typically leads you to moving all over the country which is highly undesirable for most people that want any semblance of a normal life.


I would rather pass on the meth and truck stop hookers and have a wife and a house. But transient life styles make it hard to do that, that's why the GS rolls are so coveted.
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Old 09-12-2016, 10:05 PM
 
6,853 posts, read 3,722,997 times
Reputation: 18093
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
That's why contract rolls are far less desirable to a federal GS position because there is no job security and no retirement package. Plus the job shop is getting most of cost premium not the employee so the employee has no real way to hedge against the inevitable lay off once the job is done, they are left scrambling to find another gig because the job shop took all their gravy that may have gave them 6 months to a year of extra income to find a new gig. Its not like a given area is every flush with govt gigs so as a contractor its a highly unstable life style that typically leads you to moving all over the country which is highly undesirable for most people that want any semblance of a normal life.


I would rather pass on the meth and truck stop hookers and have a wife and a house. But transient life styles make it hard to do that, that's why the GS rolls are so coveted.
That is not how the contracts work. Here's reality:


a. Gov has a need for some service or support.
b. Contract is let. Company A wins contract.
c. Company A pays above market plus provides good bennies to employees.
d. Company A charges gov for the full cost of pay plus bennies so taxpayer is paying it.
e. Eventually contract runs out so it's recompeted.
f. Company B wins the follow on.
g. Company B hires the employees from company A.
h. Keep repeating for decades. Employees work their entire career for the same place. Retire with full benefits. Their kids get jobs working for the contractor so several generations working at the same place.


This is the reality of contracts supporting the gov.
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Old 09-13-2016, 01:11 PM
 
6,942 posts, read 3,066,967 times
Reputation: 4425
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
That is not how the contracts work. Here's reality:


a. Gov has a need for some service or support.
b. Contract is let. Company A wins contract.
c. Company A pays above market plus provides good bennies to employees.
d. Company A charges gov for the full cost of pay plus bennies so taxpayer is paying it.
e. Eventually contract runs out so it's recompeted.
f. Company B wins the follow on.
g. Company B hires the employees from company A.
h. Keep repeating for decades. Employees work their entire career for the same place. Retire with full benefits. Their kids get jobs working for the contractor so several generations working at the same place.


This is the reality of contracts supporting the gov.
That sounds great, I know with some other industries once the company A to company B transition happens there can be some displaced people for quite some time, its not just a nice seamless transfer of people. I have heard of people being laid off for 6 months to a year in my industry if you happen to get caught up in one of these contract swaps, it can be a really nasty thing with lay offs and pay cuts, cuts to bennifits, etc.
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