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Why? You can control buying a house or car you can't afford (or at least weighing the risk of losing your "regular" income over a 5 or 30 year period) but outside of "lifestyle" illnesses like lung cancer caused by tobacco, you can't control getting sick so why should you be punished for that? Some medical costs are so high relative to income that an average person will NEVER be able to pay it off. Are you saying someone with cancer should just die because they're not a millionaire?
No wonder we're the only nation on earth with this problem (the medical debt one......).
Some people actually DO say that. You should read the essays in This Land Is Their Land: Reports from a Divided Nation by Barbara Ehrenreich. She has several addressing our health care industry mess and there is one in particular that reminds me of what you wrote above: a doctor/entrepreneur who bought several hospitals in California and does not accept insurance directly and who says, "People only deserve the care they can afford to pay for." She has another particularly good essay where she talks about how needing health care is not a "shopping spree." We are not going out getting "recreational colonoscopies." Often we, the patient, do not make the decision on what health care (tests, medications, etc.) we need, the doctors do. So why is it being treated the same as consumer debt by credit reports? Do unpaid medical bills count on a credit credit report exactly the way an unpaid credit card does? From this thread, that is what I am tending to believe, but I wanted to confirm it by asking the question.
Worse skeletons than the Wall St. Banking Masters of the Universe who engineered exotic mortgages and profited from this meltdown and then got the taxpayers to bail them out?
If that were the case, I think the whole banking industry should be FIRED and replaced with non-swindlers. Too bad the banking industry LIKES the type of people they get.
To top it off, the swindler types have perfect credit because they can pay their bills easily with all they've swindled so they look great on a credit report.
Not everyone in banking is a bad guy. There are plenty of solid community banks that didn't get caught up in the mess, and I'll also point out that Regions Bank, one of the nations largest took no Federal bail out money. There are also a lot of low level bank employees--tellers, platform officers, etc. who had nothing to do with the banking melt-down.
You make a lot of accusations based on sensationalized news stories and your own emotional assumptions.
Not everyone in banking is a bad guy. There are plenty of solid community banks that didn't get caught up in the mess, and I'll also point out that Regions Bank, one of the nations largest took no Federal bail out money. There are also a lot of low level bank employees--tellers, platform officers, etc. who had nothing to do with the banking melt-down.
You make a lot of accusations based on sensationalized news stories and your own emotional assumptions.
I don't have anything against the little guy in banking and I know not all financial institutions caused problems.
I fully admit the corrupt, self-serving executives at the top do get on my emotions and they do attract sensationalized press ... as they deserve. They cost us a lot in terms of taxpayer money and lost jobs.
For example, if anyone has seen the trailers for Michael Moore's Capitalism: A Love Story ... I agree with his choice of "crime scene tape" placement!
Some people actually DO say that. You should read the essays in This Land Is Their Land: Reports from a Divided Nation by Barbara Ehrenreich. She has several addressing our health care industry mess and there is one in particular that reminds me of what you wrote above: a doctor/entrepreneur who bought several hospitals in California and does not accept insurance directly and who says, "People only deserve the care they can afford to pay for." She has another particularly good essay where she talks about how needing health care is not a "shopping spree." We are not going out getting "recreational colonoscopies." Often we, the patient, do not make the decision on what health care (tests, medications, etc.) we need, the doctors do. So why is it being treated the same as consumer debt by credit reports? Do unpaid medical bills count on a credit credit report exactly the way an unpaid credit card does? From this thread, that is what I am tending to believe, but I wanted to confirm it by asking the question.
1. There is nothing wrong with private hospitals not accepting insurance. If you don't want to pay out of pocket, go elsewhere for treatment. I'm all for various tiers of medical care where private pay and "Cadillac" private insurance patients can get access to the best of everything, private suits, private 24 hour nursing care, less wait time to see their doctor, etc.
One of the local hospitals near me will no longer accept uninsured non-life threatening emergency patients. The other option would be for that hospital to close, because they could no longer afford to treat people who never paid. There are other hospitals in the area who will accept "charity cases" but they probably aren't as convenient. They aren't turning away uninsured people having a heart attack, but they are turning away uninsured people coming in with an ear infection. There's a sliding scale clinic three miles away, but people dont' want to go there because it's not the best neighborhood. Boo freaking hoo.
2. As a patient you have every right to refuse tests, medication, proceedures, consutations, surgeries, etc. I had a doctor try to get me to get an expensive test after I had an asthma attack. I've had asthma for years, I know when i ahve an attack, I don't need to have a $5000 test done to tell me I had an attack. I refused, it was my right, and I'm sure my insurance company was happy. By the way, you also by law can ask a doctor to write a prescription as a generic, or for a less expensive drug. I've done that too. I don't need a $50 prescription for Augmentin when $5 worth of Amoxicillan will work just as well.
3. Medical debt is debt just like credit card debt and is treated as such by creditors. They will sometimes over look very small outstanding medical collections (under $250) if it's an isolated "bad debt."
If you work with money and have alot of outstanding debt - it's like leaving a purse in an unlocked car. Why tempt people?
In some government jobs, you need to step up and tell them how your finances are. If you have debt and tell them - you are fine. If you don't tell them and a credit report shows otherwise - you are in trouble. They don't care about the debt itself.
The government is concerned that you could be easily blackmailed. You can be manipulated into providing information in exchange for not leaking your deep dark debt secret. It does make sense - at some level.
I don't have anything against the little guy in banking and I know not all financial institutions caused problems.
I fully admit the corrupt, self-serving executives at the top do get on my emotions and they do attract sensationalized press ... as they deserve. They cost us a lot in terms of taxpayer money and lost jobs.
For example, if anyone has seen the trailers for Michael Moore's Capitalism: A Love Story ... I agree with his choice of "crime scene tape" placement!
An interesting story I read about the crime scene tape placement......supposedly the police did come by and winked at him saying something like "that bank robbed our pension funds". That said, while the Michael Moore movies have their heart in the right place, a lot of times parts of them are exaggerated.
Annerk, see my responses to each point in BOLD ITALIC CAPS below to distinguish. I agree with you about the banks, BTW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by annerk
1. There is nothing wrong with private hospitals not accepting insurance. If you don't want to pay out of pocket, go elsewhere for treatment. I'm all for various tiers of medical care where private pay and "Cadillac" private insurance patients can get access to the best of everything, private suits, private 24 hour nursing care, less wait time to see their doctor, etc.
One of the local hospitals near me will no longer accept uninsured non-life threatening emergency patients. The other option would be for that hospital to close, because they could no longer afford to treat people who never paid. There are other hospitals in the area who will accept "charity cases" but they probably aren't as convenient. They aren't turning away uninsured people having a heart attack, but they are turning away uninsured people coming in with an ear infection. There's a sliding scale clinic three miles away, but people dont' want to go there because it's not the best neighborhood. Boo freaking hoo.
I'M OK WITH THIS AS LONG AS THAT PERSON WITH AN EAR INFECTION HAS SOMEWHERE TO GO TO GET THE PROPER CARE.
2. As a patient you have every right to refuse tests, medication, proceedures, consutations, surgeries, etc. I had a doctor try to get me to get an expensive test after I had an asthma attack. I've had asthma for years, I know when i ahve an attack, I don't need to have a $5000 test done to tell me I had an attack. I refused, it was my right, and I'm sure my insurance company was happy. By the way, you also by law can ask a doctor to write a prescription as a generic, or for a less expensive drug. I've done that too. I don't need a $50 prescription for Augmentin when $5 worth of Amoxicillan will work just as well.
THIS IS A GOOD POINT AND PEOPLE SHOULD BE MORE AWARE OF IT, BUT NOT EVERYONE HAS THE ABILITY TO KNOW THAT AMOXICILLAN COULD DO THE SAME THING AS AUGMENTIN AND FOR CHEAPER (HECK, I DIDN'T). PERSONALLY HEALTH CARE REFORM OF ANY KIND I THINK SHOULD MAKE THE DOCTOR LIABLE TO BE AWARE OF THIS AND NOT SIMPLY PRESCRIBE THE MOST EXPENSIVE MEDICATION UNLESS IT'S REALLY THE ONLY REALLY EFFECTIVE ONE.
3. Medical debt is debt just like credit card debt and is treated as such by creditors. They will sometimes over look very small outstanding medical collections (under $250) if it's an isolated "bad debt."
AGAIN, UNTIL OPTIONS ARE MADE IN OUR LAWS SO SOMEONE ISN'T FORCED TO GO INTO DEBT THEY CAN'T AFFORD BECAUSE THEY GOT SICK IT SHOULDN'T BE. I'LL REWORD THE "SHOULD SOMEONE WITH CANCER DIE......" PIECE I SAID EARLIER A BIT BETTER.....ANNERK, IF YOU GOT CANCER AND COULD NOT AFFORD TREATMENT, WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF YOU THOUGHT PRODUCING A DEBT YOU COULDN'T AFFORD WOULD KEEP YOU FROM GETTING A JOB, ETC.? (WHICH IS HOW I SHOULD'VE PUT IT IN THE FIRST PLACE AND APOLOGIZE FOR THAT, FROM SOME OF YOUR RESPONSE I DON'T ACTUALLY THINK YOU WOULD SAY THE PATIENT SHOULD "JUST DIE" THOUGH I_LOVE_LI_BUT MADE A GOOD POINT ON THAT).
1. There is nothing wrong with private hospitals not accepting insurance. If you don't want to pay out of pocket, go elsewhere for treatment. I'm all for various tiers of medical care where private pay and "Cadillac" private insurance patients can get access to the best of everything, private suits, private 24 hour nursing care, less wait time to see their doctor, etc.
I was just describing the entrepreneur, not necessarily against hospitals that won't accept insurance. This particular hospital chain is not for the wealthy who can afford the best. Rather, they specialize in high profit health care (cancer is one of them) and they gouge anyone who doesn't have insurance or is underinsured, threaten them with strong arm collection tactics and often people end up taking private loans out to pay their higher than average prices for care. They are ghouls who specialize in ripping off the sick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by annerk
One of the local hospitals near me will no longer accept uninsured non-life threatening emergency patients. The other option would be for that hospital to close, because they could no longer afford to treat people who never paid. There are other hospitals in the area who will accept "charity cases" but they probably aren't as convenient. They aren't turning away uninsured people having a heart attack, but they are turning away uninsured people coming in with an ear infection. There's a sliding scale clinic three miles away, but people dont' want to go there because it's not the best neighborhood. Boo freaking hoo.
I don't blame the hospital for doing that. Enough is enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by annerk
2. As a patient you have every right to refuse tests, medication, proceedures, consutations, surgeries, etc. I had a doctor try to get me to get an expensive test after I had an asthma attack. I've had asthma for years, I know when i ahve an attack, I don't need to have a $5000 test done to tell me I had an attack. I refused, it was my right, and I'm sure my insurance company was happy. By the way, you also by law can ask a doctor to write a prescription as a generic, or for a less expensive drug. I've done that too. I don't need a $50 prescription for Augmentin when $5 worth of Amoxicillan will work just as well.
So many people are not as savvy as you are and they will do whatever the doctor says. Often people get a horrible diagnosis like cancer and they are scared out of their mind NOT to listen to whatever the doctor wants them to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by annerk
3. Medical debt is debt just like credit card debt and is treated as such by creditors. They will sometimes over look very small outstanding medical collections (under $250) if it's an isolated "bad debt."
I just don't think, especially with our dog-eat-dog health care system, that people who owe medical bills should be treated the same as irresponsible credit card users. Is it going to become a crime to get sick?
13. Medical debt is debt just like credit card debt
I disagree. One makes a choice to buy the $60 pair of shoes vs. the $600 pair. One can choose a small Ford over a Lexus. One can buy the 3 bedroom fixer instead of the 5 bedroom McMansion. But consumers very rarely have that kind of control over their healthcare dollars.
Yes generic drugs can save a few bucks here and there. In big cities some of you probably have a choice of hospitals and clinics and doctors. For those of us in smaller towns all across the US that is not the case. In the case of emergencies where the victim is unconscious, all bets are off. What if you are rushed to a facility that is not part of your PPO?
Again, FICO predicts consumer patterns with regard to credit spending/payment with a nice degree of accuracy, which is why it became so popular with lenders.
It falters when other types of debt (such as installment plans for example) are thrown into the mix. I'd argue that medical expenses really don't belong in there either, because those are often not rational consumer-driven choices.
People in those situations either have no choice at all or they may be making decisions under extreme duress.
Algorithms are nice tools, but we have to remember, they have their limits.
Like I said, medical debt needs to be reported and show on a credit report, it should not be reflected in a FICO until it has aged in collections past a certain point--although if it gets to the point of judgement (which is seldom unless the person has made no attempt to pay it off) it needs to be reflected in the FICO.
Lenders MUST be able to make informed decisions. If you are a bank and someone applies for a loan with you, do you think it's fair that you dont know about the medical debt that the person is carrying when determining their debt to income ratios or having any idea that they might decalre BK in six months after their paycheck begins to get garnished?
If banks can't make informed lending decisions, they are going to make a lot of bad loans, and the rest of us end up holding the bag.
I disagree. One makes a choice to buy the $60 pair of shoes vs. the $600 pair. One can choose a small Ford over a Lexus. One can buy the 3 bedroom fixer instead of the 5 bedroom McMansion. But consumers very rarely have that kind of control over their healthcare dollars.
Yes generic drugs can save a few bucks here and there. In big cities some of you probably have a choice of hospitals and clinics and doctors. For those of us in smaller towns all across the US that is not the case. In the case of emergencies where the victim is unconscious, all bets are off. What if you are rushed to a facility that is not part of your PPO?
Again, FICO predicts consumer patterns with regard to credit spending/payment with a nice degree of accuracy, which is why it became so popular with lenders.
It falters when other types of debt (such as installment plans for example) are thrown into the mix. I'd argue that medical expenses really don't belong in there either, because those are often not rational consumer-driven choices.
People in those situations either have no choice at all or they may be making decisions under extreme duress.
Algorithms are nice tools, but we have to remember, they have their limits.
You're absolutely right and I go further.
The "health care" industry is, at best, non-competitive and exists to take advantage of the helpless, the vulnerable, and the gullible by using that uniquely non-competitive market to suck every last drop of $blood$ they can possibly get away with. It is beyond outrageous and it is good to see more people waking up to that fact that there is no industry that is more corrupt and that major changes are needed.
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