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The ancient Jewish historian Flavius Josephus suggested in his work Contra Apion that the Hyksos were, in fact, the ancient Hebrews.
Many of the theories explored by Jacobovici were previously published in the 1998 book Act of God written by British historian Graham Phillips.
Folklore? That's cute.
RESPONSE:
It is recognized that Josephus, writing 1200 to 1500 years after the event, was wrong on this point.
Again from Wikipedia:
"Josephus identifies the Israelite Exodus with the first exodus mentioned by Manetho, when some 480,000 Hyksos "shepherd kings" (also referred to as just 'shepherds', as 'kings' and as 'captive shepherds' in his discussion of Manetho) left Egypt for Jerusalem.[24] The mention of "Hyksos" identifies this first exodus with the Hyksos period (16th century BC)."
Thus this would be hundreds of years earlier even than the earliest possible date for the Exodus.
Last edited by ancient warrior; 01-03-2011 at 11:58 AM..
Reason: typo
Here’s an interesting observation by Jacob Gebhart publishing on the Ancient Hebrew Research Center website
"The average number of children born to the descendents of Yaacov is three to five. If we assume that the twelve children of Yaacov had 5 children, and the generation of Kohath, Amram and Moses each had 5 children, the maximum number of people (men, women and children) descended from Yaacov at the time of the exodus would be approximately 7500.”
Note: “Yaacov “or “Yaakov” is another name for Jacob, Joseph’s father, who had twelve sons.
Not this:
Exodus 12:37 And the people of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children.
Last edited by ancient warrior; 01-03-2011 at 12:07 PM..
Reason: getting rid of "SIZE's" again
Whatever. We have an historical account of Hebrews making an exodus out of Egypt. Whether or not you want to believe that account doesn't matter to me. Your not believing it does not mean it didn't happen.
How many Jews left Egypt?
Jacob's family came to Egypt with a total of 70 people (Exodus 1:5). After 430 years of brutal slave labor, that number rose to about 600,000 men (Exodus 12:37), which is remarkable considering the fact that many of the people would have died under cruel and dangerous work conditions. The book of Numbers begins with a national census (1:45-46). This census was conducted after the exodus from Egypt and it totals 603,550 men above the age of 20. Since these figures apply only to adult males, it has been traditionally assumed that the total number of participants including women and children, could have approximated 2.5 million people.
Some believe that the number could have been much higher than that. The estimated 2.5 million people is reached by estimating that the men would have been married and each family having at least 2 children. Among the Jewish people of ancient culture, large families were considered an honor. It is reasonable to believe that families would have totaled many more children than just two. If the number of children per family were just four, then the number of people that left Egypt could have been 3.5 million people.
Not this:
Exodus 12:37 And the people of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children.
Right, 600,000 not including women and children, and the men were 20 years on up. So from 19 down to 1 year old or less and a 5:1 ratio there could be 5 x 600,000 = 3,000,000 approx. people.
Whatever. We have an historical account of Hebrews making an exodus out of Egypt. Whether or not you want to believe that account doesn't matter to me. Your not believing it does not mean it didn't happen.
Fact is, you can't prove it didn't happen.
RESPONSE:
Once contradition is established, at least one version (or both) must be fictional.
How many Jews left Egypt?
Jacob's family came to Egypt with a total of 70 people (Exodus 1:5). After 430 years of brutal slave labor, that number rose to about 600,000 men (Exodus 12:37), which is remarkable considering the fact that many of the people would have died under cruel and dangerous work conditions. The book of Numbers begins with a national census (1:45-46). This census was conducted after the exodus from Egypt and it totals 603,550 men above the age of 20. Since these figures apply only to adult males, it has been traditionally assumed that the total number of participants including women and children, could have approximated 2.5 million people.
Some believe that the number could have been much higher than that. The estimated 2.5 million people is reached by estimating that the men would have been married and each family having at least 2 children. Among the Jewish people of ancient culture, large families were considered an honor. It is reasonable to believe that families would have totaled many more children than just two. If the number of children per family were just four, then the number of people that left Egypt could have been 3.5 million people.
And what about the men having multiple wives and concubines?
RESPONSE:
Hardly. Let's start with 70 people: 35 males and 35 females. Let's assume an average of five children per family. The let's assume 4 generations every hundred years for 430 years.
The number isn't 2.5 to 3.5 million.
Do you have any calcuations to offer?
Last edited by ancient warrior; 01-03-2011 at 01:23 PM..
Reason: adjust figures
THE POPULATION QUESTION
Those advocating a long oppression, and a stay of 430 years in Goshen, often do so on the basis of population. It is impossible, they say, for 70 people to become 2,000,000 in only 215 years. This is wrong on two counts. First, although only 70 of Jacob's immediate family went down into Egypt (Ex. 1), their servants went along as well. Abraham had 318 trained fighting men in his sheikdom. Estimates range up to 3000 or more for his complete household. These servants multiplied and became those of Isaac and Jacob. It might have been 10,000 people who moved to Goshen.
Ten thousand people may mean 5000 males. If each man had five sons, the next generation would be 25,000. If each son had five sons, the third generation would be 125,000. If each son had five sons, the fourth (exodus) generation would be 625,000, which is roughly the number of males that exited Egypt (625,550; Num. 1:46; 3:39). But that fourth generation was Moses' age, who was 80 at the time of the exodus. Thus, there is room for a fifth, which would be 3,125,000, plus their 625,000 fathers, for a total of 3,650,000 males. Obviously, the population could easily have increased that much in 215 years.
Let's assume that there were 1000 males who went to Goshen. Assume five sons for each mail. Second generation is 5000, third is 25,000, fourth is 125,000, and fifth is 625,000. It still works just fine. And remember, the "four generations" are very stretched out. There were actually more generations in most lines.
But let's assume that only Jacob's immediate family went down to Egypt. J. B. Murphy writes, "As the average of seven generations from Arpachshad to Nahor was 31 years, when men lived from 348 to 148 years, we may safely assume 30 years as a generation, and, therefore, seven generations in 210 years. As Abraham had six sons by Keturah, and Jacob six by Leah, we may also suppose each parent to have four sons on an average, when the divine blessing of fruitfulness was promised (Gen. 35:11), and actually bestowed in Egypt (Ex. 1:7). With 68 males for the first term, 8 for the number of terms, and 4 for the common ratio, the last term, or the number of males at the exodus, would be 1,114,112. This is considerably above the actual number, and therefore allows for a smaller number of generations in particular lines, as that of Moses. With a special promise of fruitfulness, and an exceedingly fertile soil [Goshen], this cannot be regarded as either an impossible or improbable increase."
Gary North has discussed this question in detail in his book Moses and Pharaoh. North argues conservatively that in terms of biological reproduction we can get close, but not close enough, to the 2,000,000 figure. North argues further, however, that there were many circumcised converts that joined the Hebrews, especially in the early years of the sojourn when Joseph was popular. Elsewhere I have argued that Genesis 41-50 consistently presents a picture of a converted Egypt. Thus, based on Genesis 41-50, I think North has got it right.
Whatever. We have an historical account of Hebrews making an exodus out of Egypt. Whether or not you want to believe that account doesn't matter to me. Your not believing it does not mean it didn't happen.
Fact is, you can't prove it didn't happen.
RESPONSE:
The Bible hardly qualifies as a historical account of the events it describes, as wee shall see.
Hardly. Let's start with 70 people: 35 males and 35 females. Let's assume an average of five children per family. The let's assume 4 generations every hundred years for 430 years.
The number isn't 2.5 to 3.5 million.
Do you have any calcuations to offer?
RESPONSE:
Here's the problem with the 430 years claimed in Exodus. If we assume the above 70 people (35 male and 35 females) and allow for only 4 generations per hundred years with 5 offspring per women, we end up with about 5.2 billion Hebrews.
To put this in perspective, today there are only about 2.4 billion people. So the Hebrews would have twice the present world's population.
However, the world population in 1000 BC (see Wikipedia) is take to have been 50 million, not 5.2 billion.
Obviously the figures are impossible. But if we allow only about 200 years for the Hebrews in Egypt, the population drops to 430,000. Unfortunately, this would only be half males (potential warriors), not the 600,000 claimed by Exodus.
So either way, the Bible seems to be in error on the Hebrew population question.
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