How many Jews exited Egypt in the Exodus? (witness, Bible, Israel)

[ancient warrior]

>>>The first king of the Israelites was Saul reigning about 950-1000 BC. Common sense dictates that, based on the claim that something existed before any king reigned over the Israelites, it had to be written after the Israelites had their first king. <<<

Ah ha! Thus we also can determine the earliest date that the Pentuarch could have been written. About 950 BC or later.

From the Wikipedia


Julius Wellhausen's contribution was to order these sources chronologically as JEDP, giving them a coherent setting in the evolving religious history of Israel, which he saw as one of ever-increasing priestly power. Wellhausen's formulation was:

• the Yahwist source ( J ) : written c. 950 BCE in the southern Kingdom of Judah.
• the Elohist source ( E ) : written c. 850 BCE in the northern Kingdom of Israel.
• the Deuteronomist ( D ) : written c. 600 BCE in Jerusalem during a period of religious reform.
• the Priestly source ( P ) : written c. 500 BCE by Aaronic priests in exile in Babylon.
• The Torah redactors: first JE, then JED, and finally JEDP, producing the final form of the Torah c. 450 BCE.

[ancient warrior]

GloryB says,
>>For me, nothing in the Bible is only a legend. If God said it, it is true for me exactly the way He said it. Now, we can sometimes read something wrong or words get lost in a translation, but if we follow a trail long enough, we'll always find the truth.<<

Wikipedia says
Leviathan (pronounced /lɨˈvaɪ.əθən/; Hebrew: לִוְיָתָן, Modern, Livyatan , Tiberian , Liwyā, ṯān ; "twisted, coiled"), is a sea monster referred to in the Bible. In Demonology, Leviathan is one of the seven princes of Hell and its gatekeeper (see Hellmouth).
[
Job 41 says
"Can you draw out Leviathan with a fish-hook, or press down its tongue with a cord? Can you put a rope in its nose or pierce its jaw with a hook? Will it make many supplications to you? Will it speak soft words to you? (NRSV)


Psalm 104 says,
Yonder is the sea, great and wide, creeping things innumerable are there, living things both small and great. There go the ships, and Leviathan that you formed to sport in it.(NRSV)

Question:
You do believe all that, don’t you? “You can’t prove it isn't so” right?

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by ancient warrior

GloryB says,
>>For me, nothing in the Bible is only a legend. If God said it, it is true for me exactly the way He said it. Now, we can sometimes read something wrong or words get lost in a translation, but if we follow a trail long enough, we'll always find the truth.<<

Wikipedia says
Leviathan (pronounced /lɨˈvaɪ.əθən/; Hebrew: לִוְיָתָן, Modern, Livyatan , Tiberian , Liwyā, ṯān ; "twisted, coiled"), is a sea monster referred to in the Bible. In Demonology, Leviathan is one of the seven princes of Hell and its gatekeeper (see Hellmouth).
[
Job 41 says
"Can you draw out Leviathan with a fish-hook, or press down its tongue with a cord? Can you put a rope in its nose or pierce its jaw with a hook? Will it make many supplications to you? Will it speak soft words to you? (NRSV)


Psalm 104 says,
Yonder is the sea, great and wide, creeping things innumerable are there, living things both small and great. There go the ships, and Leviathan that you formed to sport in it.(NRSV)

Question:
You do believe all that, don’t you? “You can’t prove it isn't so” right?

AW, of course God made a sea monster named leviathan. Does it still exist today? Probably. Is it the whale? I don't know. But just because you find a wikipedia writing on Leviathan that has some odd idea about hell etc. does not mean they are correct.

[Mercury Cougar]

Originally Posted by ancient warrior

The biblical account of the Jewish Exodus from Egypt raises a number of questions about it's historical nature. Or put simply, did it actually occur as described in the Bible or is it only a legend?

The first obvious question would be how many Jews were involved in the Exodus?

Opinions?

This is another myth from the bible that is untrue. There are all sorts of contradictions between the timeline the bible gives, and the time in question in our recorded history. This story could not have happened as written in the bible. Archaeological evidence, and our written histories prove this. If by some chance some Jews did leave Egypt during the time in question, it would have been a very small group of people. There are reams of evidence for this, with great explanations as to how and why the Exodus didn't happen.

Even many biblical scholars who have a dog in the fight to prove this story true admit that it's not.

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by ancient warrior

Evidently one of the more difficult chapters of the Patauach (or Torah) which Moses had to write was Deut 34.8

"The Israelites wept for Moses in the plains of Moab for thirty days; then the period of mourning for Moses was ended. " (NRSV)

It's always difficult to write a chapter about your own death and burial.

Like I said, I never said Moses wrote all of the first five books of the Bible. So what's your point?

It was stated the O.T. was written after the Babylonian captivity. That is obviously false.

Also, it could be possible that the majority of Deuteronomy was written by Moses but in the final chapter near the end when Moses died someone else finished the book stating his death.

Here is an interesting read on who wrote Deuteronomy:
Answers.com - Who wrote Deuteronomy

BTW, JEDP (which you brought up in a prior post to this) was discredited many years ago.

P.S. if you have a bible search program (I suggest the free E-Sword) do a search on "Moses" within Deuteronomy. Over and over again he is the speaker and writer in that book.

[ancient warrior]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

AW, of course God made a sea monster named leviathan. Does it still exist today? Probably. Is it the whale? I don't know. But just because you find a wikipedia writing on Leviathan that has some odd idea about hell etc. does not mean they are correct.

RESPONSE:

Good grief

Next you'll be telling us that the earth doesn't move because God said it wouldn't.

"You fixed the earth on its foundation, never to be moved." (Ps 104.5)

[ancient warrior]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

Like I said, I never said Moses wrote all of the first five books of the Bible. So what's your point?

It was stated the O.T. was written after the Babylonian captivity. That is obviously false.

Also, it could be possible that the majority of Deuteronomy was written by Moses but in the final chapter near the end when Moses died someone else finished the book stating his death.

Here is an interesting read on who wrote Deuteronomy:
Answers.com - Who wrote Deuteronomy

BTW, JEDP (which you brought up in a prior post to this) was discredited many years ago.

P.S. if you have a bible search program (I suggest the free E-Sword) do a search on "Moses" within Deuteronomy. Over and over again he is the speaker and writer in that book.

RESPONSE:

If the Bible began to be written after 950 BC (when Israel had its first king), Moses couldn't have written any of them.

In case you've forgotten:

"These are the kings who reigned in the land of Edom, before any king reigned over the Israelites." (NRSV). Genesis 36:31


The first king of the Israelites was Saul reigning about 950-1000 BC. Common sense dictates that, based on the claim that something existed before any king reigned over the Israelites, it had to be written after the Israelites had their first king.

>>Also, it could be possible that...." It also "could be possible that "Moses lived in Brooklyn, but most realize he didn't.

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by ancient warrior

RESPONSE:

Good grief

Next you'll be telling us that the earth doesn't move because God said it wouldn't.

"You fixed the earth on its foundation, never to be moved." (Ps 104.5)

Good grief
Next you'll be telling us that the earth was not founded on its bases and shall never slip for the eon!

Psa 104:5 He has founded the earth on its bases. It shall never slip for the eon and further.

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by ancient warrior

RESPONSE:

If the Bible began to be written after 950 BC (when Israel had its first king), Moses couldn't have written any of them.

In case you've forgotten:

"These are the kings who reigned in the land of Edom, before any king reigned over the Israelites." (NRSV). Genesis 36:31


The first king of the Israelites was Saul reigning about 950-1000 BC. Common sense dictates that, based on the claim that something existed before any king reigned over the Israelites, it had to be written after the Israelites had their first king.

>>Also, it could be possible that...." It also "could be possible that "Moses lived in Brooklyn, but most realize he didn't.

Here is what Adam Clarke's Commentary says on Genesis 36:31:

"Gen 36:31 -
Before there reigned any king over - Israel - I suppose all the verses, from Gen_36:31-39 inclusive, have been transferred to this place from 1Ch_1:43-50, as it is not likely they could have been written by Moses; and it is quite possible they might have been, at a very early period, written in the margin of an authentic copy, to make out the regal succession in Edom, prior to the consecration of Saul; which words being afterwards found in the margin of a valuable copy, from which others were transcribed, were supposed by the copyist to be a part of the text, which having been omitted by the mistake of the original writer, had been since added to make up the deficiency; on this conviction he would not hesitate to transcribe them consecutively in his copy. In most MSS. sentences and paragraphs have been left out by the copyists, which, when perceived, have been added in the margin, either by the original writer, or by some later hand. Now, as the margin was the ordinary place where glosses or explanatory notes were written, it is easy to conceive how the notes, as well as the parts of the original text found in the margin, might be all incorporated with the text by a future transcriber; and his MSS., being often copied, would of course multiply the copies with such additions, as we have much reason to believe has been the case. This appears very frequently in the Vulgate and Septuagint; and an English Bible now before me written some time in the fourteenth century, exhibits several proofs of this principle. See the preface to this work.

I know there is another way of accounting for those words on the ground of their being written originally by Moses; but to me it is not satisfactory. It is simply this: the word king should be considered as implying any kind of regular government, whether by chiefs, dukes, judges, etc., and therefore when Moses says these are the kings which reigned in Edom, before there was any king in Israel, he may be only understood as saying that these kings reigned among the Edomites before the family of Jacob had acquired any considerable power, or before the time in which his twelve sons had become the fathers of those numerous tribes, at the head of which, as king himself in Jeshurun, he now stood.
Esau, after his dukes, had eight kings, who reigned successively over their people, while Israel were in affliction in Egypt."

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by ancient warrior

>>Also, it could be possible that...." It also "could be possible that "Moses lived in Brooklyn, but most realize he didn't.

No, it is not possible Moses lived in Brooklyn. But that does not disprove my points.