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Yes, of course. I agree that there are differences between Christianity and current day Judaism. When Jesus came he did introduce something new - the New Covenant. This provided atonement for sin for both Jew and Gentile alike through His death. Animal sacrifice was no longer needed. But he never claimed to be a new god in whom people should worship, rather a bridge to His Father through His own death. That was His sole purpose in fact. Because of that Christians do pray in His name. But its still to the same God - Adonai. You may not believe that. But Christ never came to bring a new god on the scene to worship. Rather He came to provide access to the God of Israel for both Jew and Gentile. You may recall He was mocked and killed as King of the Jews. Christianity is therefore deeply rooted in the Jewish faith. That is my main point in all of this. Regarding His diety, He claimed to be sent by the Father, One with Him, not some other pagan god.
Lastly don't you think its possible that when the Messiah you have been waiting for comes God may choose to have him do more or even something different than what you have planned for him?
Derek
Corrections, not "current day" Judiasm but 5000 years of Judasim.
The idea a MAN is used as a human sacrifice is godles and pagan, Torah specifically says NO HUMAN sacrifice is allowed. Also no sacrifices are to be performed OUTSIDE of the temple. So your idea of "jesus" as a sacrfice for sins VIOLATES g-ds written laws.
It's a compltely DIFFERERENT "god", G-d is ONE, not three, G-D is NOT a man and no man is G-D, G-D does not DIE (you claim your jesus to be "god" then you claim he died!), You jesus was never a 'king' of any people and not a king of jews. Trinity is a pagan idea. The theory of g-d having a child comes from greek and roman ideas, not from the Jewish religion, again chrsitianity is completly seperate.
You said "what you have planned for him" !!! NO.. G-D made the plan for the REAL messiah, not we jews....
the REAL messiah is to be born from a human daddy and a human mommy
the REAL messiah will bring world peace
the REAL messiah will bring all jews to live in israel
the REAL messiah will have all humans know g-d
This is not "our plan" this is G-D's Plan, clearly written in jewish "scripture"
I've been away from the forum for a day and there are many, many posts. I think I must have stirred up a hornets nest with you or something which wasn't really my intention. I was simply trying to gain understanding of these issues from your perspective and hoping you could try and do the same. We can agree to disagree at this point. Read the scriptures and determine what you believe to be correct before God. Our faiths are different as we already know, but they share the same origins. Christians disagree with all the conflicts you see. But again I'm not here to focus upon that.
I've been away from the forum for a day and there are many, many posts. I think I must have stirred up a hornets nest with you or something which wasn't really my intention. I was simply trying to gain understanding of these issues from your perspective and hoping you could try and do the same. We can agree to disagree at this point. Read the scriptures and determine what you believe to be correct before God. Our faiths are different as we already know, but they share the same origins. Christians disagree with all the conflicts you see. But again I'm not here to focus upon that.
May the One True God guide you in your life,
Derek
You began the thread with a rather simple issue--- "This thread is to help me understand Jewish people who are really into their culture, but do not necessarily believe in God, eternal life, miracles, etc..."
You received serious replies. Given how much you know about the history and beliefs of Judaism, I have a feeling you knew the answers to your own questions.
J4J, Jews who believe Christ is the messiah, is a different matter altogether. On that, I don't accept that one can be a religious jew and believe Christ is messiah, no matter how many paradigms you or others come up with.
I've been away from the forum for a day and there are many, many posts. I think I must have stirred up a hornets nest with you or something which wasn't really my intention. I was simply trying to gain understanding of these issues from your perspective and hoping you could try and do the same. We can agree to disagree at this point. Read the scriptures and determine what you believe to be correct before God. Our faiths are different as we already know, but they share the same origins. Christians disagree with all the conflicts you see. But again I'm not here to focus upon that.
May the One True God guide you in your life,
Derek
Im confused - did you come here to LEARN about secular Jews, jewish secular culture, etc? OR did you come here to tell US to read scripture and determine what we believe to be correct? And introduce the question of cultural jews deliberately in order to defend J4J - cause thats what it looks like.
I read the Torah every week in shul, and also read other parts of the Hebrew bible. But I do NOT read it with the intention of weighing the merits of Christianity - thats no more pressing a question in my life than weighing the merits of Islam or Buddism or Marxism. And rather less important than weighing different matters within rabbinic Judaism.
We Jews do not assume that the choice of whether or not to become a Jew is more important to Christians than the choice of whether to be protestant or catholic, premillenarian or post, etc, etc. Why do Christians constantly assume that the choice of becoming a christian is more important to us than deciding to become Reconstructionist or Chabad, to become more shabbat observant or not, to support gay rabbis or not, or any of a host of JEWISH questions?
You began the thread with a rather simple issue--- "This thread is to help me understand Jewish people who are really into their culture, but do not necessarily believe in God, eternal life, miracles, etc..."
You received serious replies. Given how much you know about the history and beliefs of Judaism, I have a feeling you knew the answers to your own questions.
J4J, Jews who believe Christ is the messiah, is a different matter altogether. On that, I don't accept that one can be a religious jew and believe Christ is messiah, no matter how many paradigms you or others come up with.
Fair enough. It was hard to stay on topic with all the side discussions which arrose. I did learn some new things about how a modern day Jewish atheist grapples with his/her beliefs. And so I thank you all for that input.
While I understand certain aspects of Judaism in terms of origins with regards to the Tanakh\Torah, there are parts I know very little about. For example I have never studied the Talmod which seems to be a central part of modern day Judaism.
And yes, I understand that current day Judaism doesn't accept Christ as Messiah. Otherwise the two would be one religion right? But while you do not agree with my viewpoints hopefully you can somewhat understand why Messianic Jews maintain a connection to their past as well as their present and future in light of their heritage and faith. No need to belabor that one more as we can agree to disagree on the finer points. The debate over Christ as Messiah is a whole new topic, thread and even potential book in itself. Though I did find some interesting discussions on these points and counterpoints in another thread.
Im confused - did you come here to LEARN about secular Jews, jewish secular culture, etc? OR did you come here to tell US to read scripture and determine what we believe to be correct? And introduce the question of cultural jews deliberately in order to defend J4J - cause thats what it looks like.
No, I actually was trying to stay on topic which was more difficult than usual in this particular thread. The original question regarding the atheist and his/her Jewish faith led into a new definition of Judaism for me. So with that definition being more broad, not contingent upon one's beliefs (compared to western views of religion), the other question arrose out of general curiousity. Trust me, there was no grand conspiracy. The truth is I also know Jews who are very into their heritage and celebrate all the Jewish festivals while also accepting Christ as Messiah. That's why it seems a bit odd to me that they would be so shunned by other Jews because of differenig beliefs regarding the Messiah.
Derek
Last edited by MtnSurfer; 08-04-2011 at 12:40 AM..
The truth is I also know Jews who are very into their heritage and celebrate all the Jewish festivals while also accepting Christ as Messiah. That's why it seems a bit odd to me that they would be so shunned by other Jews because of differenig beliefs regarding the Messiah.
Derek
Those people are no longer in the JEWISH religion if they belive in jesus. Even seventh day adventists practice jewish festivals but they are NOT jewish in any way. The real messiah has not come yet. If a person belives that your jesus is the messiah then he or she is a CONVERT out of the jewish religion. HE or she is a christian.
The truth is I also know Jews who are very into their heritage and celebrate all the Jewish festivals while also accepting Christ as Messiah. That's why it seems a bit odd to me that they would be so shunned by other Jews because of differenig beliefs regarding the Messiah.
Derek
Its not a technical distinction. Do they expect their children to only marry other Messianic Jews? Cause most religious Jews wont intermarry with them. If they marry with gentiles, they wil be just plain Christians within a generation or so.
Also its very odd to say, celebrate Hanukkah, which has NO biblical basis, but which we celebrate with candles based on what it says in the Talmud, when they reject the Talmud as a guide to what Judaism is (in a way that even Reform does not, BTW).
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The truth is I also know Jews who are very into their heritage and celebrate all the Jewish festivals while also accepting Christ as Messiah. That's why it seems a bit odd to me that they would be so shunned by other Jews because of differenig beliefs regarding the Messiah.
