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yes, you are correct. I was simplifying it here for the benefit of others. But as two Jews, if you want to discuss in deeper details, I am both willing and capable.
To me, however, the bottom line is that there is an unbelievable level of sincerity that must be "proved" by the potential convert before Torah Observant rabbis will accept the convert. And this level in generally defined as being fully Torah Observant. Once this standard of proof is satisfied, that person becomes 1 million percent a valid member of klal yisroel.
There is a range of positions among torah observant rabbis, including of course Conservative and modern O rabbis - no one, I think, succeeds in observing all 613 mitzot all the time (leaving aside those which cannot be observed in this era) What matters is intentionality, and intentionality can include a sense of level of effort, timing, etc.
little more than a generation ago orthodoxy was disappearing, and the non O movements in the USA, esp C, could be triumphalist (in Israel it was secularism) Its a mistake to be triumphalist based on short term data. What happened to O was that the majority who werent serious about it drifted away, and minority who were or became fervent became the majority and their numbers dominate.
C has a legacy from the time when it was what non serious Jews joined cause it was big and fashionable. Those folks are departing, one way or the other. The core who stay, who are serious, will evolve a new and successful way to be Jewish (and this includes not only C affiliated, but the growing tendency toward Cish independent minyanim) that will survive, and, I think, thrive.
I hope you are correct. It is my fervant wish that the C movement finds a way to reinvent itself (hopefully with a greater bent towards Torah observance) so that it may continue to exist in the future. The numbers look grim now, but never count out a Jew.
As I understand the term, Conservadox means a truly observant Conservative Jew, whereas most Conservative Jews do not follow the rules of Conservative Judaism.
I dont use it that way. A Conservative Jew who is shomer shabbat and keeps kashrut is simply "observant Conservative"
I use Conservadox to indicate someone leaning to Orthodox positions on areas where many observant Conservative Jews do not - for example the role of women in Jewish worship.
I hope you are correct. It is my fervant wish that the C movement finds a way to reinvent itself (hopefully with a greater bent towards Torah observance) so that it may continue to exist in the future. The numbers look grim now, but never count out a Jew.
the numbers look grim because we count everyone who belongs to a C shul as conservative. I think you will find lower intermarriage rates and higher birthrates among the more observant, more committed C Jews. and the relationship is linear. and its found among Reform as well. We really have two Jewish communities with different dynamics. Marginal ones, mostly intermarried, who have little non culinary involvement with Judaism outside synagogue, who dont join a synagogue till a kid is ready for a bar mitzvah ceremony, who are uninvolved with israel, etc. And a commited one - who send kids to (non orthodox) day school or jewish sleepaway camp, who join synagogues when single or childless, who have had meaningful israel experiences and provide the same for their kids, who engage in SOME home halacha, etc, etc, etc. Latest Salvo in Intermarriage Debate Suggests a Split in Jewish Community
Now for fully observant - shomer shabbos and full or even close to full kashrut - there are still many more Orthodox (even many more Modern O) than there are Conservative. My DD has become almost fully observant, and is still steadfastly Masorti - to find a comfortable supportive community she will need to live in one of few large cities in the USA, or make aliyah (not that there are THAT many masoriti jews in Israel, but they exist in all major cities, most are more committed than American C jews, and of course there even the chiloni Jews know what shabbos is and the whole nature of society supports it)
I hope you are correct. It is my fervant wish that the C movement finds a way to reinvent itself (hopefully with a greater bent towards Torah observance) so that it may continue to exist in the future. The numbers look grim now, but never count out a Jew.
this last shabbos I had 3 nativ (the C year long Israel program) grads and one grad of a similar program staying in my house. They kashered my oven and silverware, they made shabbos dinner (careful to make sure all done before shabbos on this very kortze friday) they davened (egalitarianly) in my living room (careful to distinguish what could not be said without a minyan).
a few days later, on what I had forgotten was rosh kodesh, my DD and her friend came down and said "daddy, want to say Hallel with us??" Not your average American teens.
I see them, and I see hope. Their numbers are small. But we learned this last week that the few are as likely to triumph as the many.
So on the one hand, yes, a Jew accepts all the mitzvahs unconditionally. However, that Jew's ability to follow all of them is a different story. The jew must do his best to follow all the mitzvahs, and where he falls short, that's a personal discussion the jew will have with Hashem when they meet up some day and have a "review" of that Jew's life. And one of Hashem's "trusted angels - HaSatan," will be the prosecuter at that trial to determine the Jews place in Olam Haba (the world to come).
The Jew will then be judged, and one of three scenarios will play out:
1. He will be judged favorably and be given a seat in Olam Haba for eternity.
2. He will be judged favorably, but with "issues," and will spend anywhere from 1 day to 11 months in "Gehinnem" where the Jew will "repair his soul - also known as T'Shuvah."
3. He will be judged as needing too much work to gain a seat in Olam Haba, and the Jew's soul will be reincarnated into a new body to live another life,and try to get it right this time. Our current sages tell us that every Jew on Earth today is doing at least a second go-around. Hopefully we all get it right this time and earn that seat in Olam Haba.
* Just as a quick aside: non-Jews also can gain a seat in Olam haba by following the 7 Noahide Laws, which are universal laws that apply to all of mankind.
Seriously? I didn't know ya'll believed in reincarnation. Where does that belief stem from? From the Torah itself, from other places in the Tanakh or is it from a Talmud source? Are these beliefs concerning the afterlife universal to Judaism? I would assume not, at least at one time anyway, as the Sadducees did not accept life after death. Did they have any "successors" as did the Pharisees with Rabbinical Judaism (so I have been told anyway).
T'Shuvah sounds similar to Catholic Purgatory (or actually the other way around ). Do these things apply to Gentiles too? And if not, what is the disposition should they fail judgement in their keeping of the Noahide laws? Annihilation? I already understood that there was no "hell" in Judaism.
Sorry about all the questions, again, just curious.
My parents belong to what I call a "militant Conservative shul." And what i mean by that, is they have exactly what you've described in your post above - Jews who are at least somewhere on the spectrum of Torah Observant, even if they fall short of Orthodox standards. My parents, on the other hand, go to shul every Shabbos, my father leins haftorah most weeks, and yet they follow almost zero actual Torah observances, and regularly try to convince my children that they are too extreme, and they should tell their parents to "lighten up.". So I think you can see where I come to this particular conversation with some pre-conceived notions. I appreciate you opening my eyes to what it may truly look like "on the ground" out there in the C movement.
Seriously? I didn't know ya'll believed in reincarnation. Where does that belief stem from? From the Torah itself, from other places in the Tanakh or is it from a Talmud source? Are these beliefs concerning the afterlife universal to Judaism? I would assume not, at least at one time anyway, as the Sadducees did not accept life after death. Did they have any "successors" as did the Pharisees with Rabbinical Judaism (so I have been told anyway).
All Jewish ideas are born out of the Torah, but remember there is the written and the oral Torah. You will not find anything about reincarnation in a literal reading (especially in a translation of a translation reading) of the written Torah. So yes, you would need to delve into the Talmud with a qualified rabbi, and then the discussions of the meforshim in the years after the time of the Talmud to understand the Jewish view on reincarnation.
When I hear the terms Sadducees and Pharisees, all I hear is "blah blah blah." It's a totally Chrstian concept to focus on these past sub-groups of Jews. So i can't answer your questions with regards to them, as i find that an irrelevant part of any discussion on Jewish belief.
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T'Shuvah sounds similar to Catholic Purgatory (or actually the other way around ). Do these things apply to Gentiles too? And if not, what is the disposition should they fail judgement in their keeping of the Noahide laws? Annihilation? I already understood that there was no "hell" in Judaism.
When I've asked my rabbaim to discuss this point a bit further, i typically get a response to the effect that the goyim too have their share of the world to come, but focus on your fellow Jews first. Those folks will have to sort themselves out. So i don't have a perfect answer for you. But i can tell you this. Hell is a myth created by Chrstians. My assumption is that the same criteria a Jew is judged on (except for a Chrstian it's the 7 Noahide laws) apply to the Chrstian. You either get to Olam haba immediately, you get there after some time in gehinnen (yes, i suspect Chstianity copied this idea from the Jews), or you are reincarnated. The souls that are entirely discarded are those of truly evil people (like Hitler, Akmajenidab and Jimmy Carter).
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Sorry about all the questions, again, just curious.
Clearly i love describing a truly and uniquely Jewish view on these issues. So ask away... (Somebody should start an "Ask a Jew" thread for everybody's questions).
(Somebody should start an "Ask a Jew" thread for everybody's questions).
So, what's stopping you?
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). Do these things apply to Gentiles too? And if not, what is the disposition should they fail judgement in their keeping of the Noahide laws? Annihilation? I already understood that there was no "hell" in Judaism.
