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In 38 pages of this thread, I''ve referenced the fact that the OT that Chrsitians read is a "translation of a translation" many many times. Obviously I have a problem with this concept. I was pondering this idea over Shabbos, and an anaolgy came to mind. We all like to have "equivalent" examples in our heads to better understand difficult idea, and one came to mind for me.
The OT is a translation of a translation. The Torah was obviously originally written in Hebrew, a thousand or so years later it was translated into Greek, then it was ultimately translated into hundreds of languages since with literally thousands of versions. I would think no scientist would be comfortable using this "lineage" to come to any firm conclusions.
When i think of the OT, it's like this:
Take a book written in America by an American on current geopolitics. Then take that book and give it the Iranian government and have them translate it into Farsi (is that the name of their language?). Akmadinehjab gets to be the final editor of this tranlation. Then now take that book, translate it into every tongue on Earth, and make THAT ONE the official book on current geopolitics. And furthermore, let the entire world tell the American who wrote the orginal book that any contradictions between his book and this new translation of a translation - all ties go to the translation of the translation.
And folks, that's exactly what we have with your OT.
This is where a lot of Christians have trouble with me. I have a hard time believing that the Catholic Church, who are mortal men, who wanted to keep the bible out of the hands of everyone else, translated without bias. Plus I'm supposed to be ok with the same said church as being the deciding factor on what is "scripture" and what is not? Sorry, not me. Then the sweet Christians will tell me I'm not a Christian because I don't put my complete faith in these men.
Jusaism has one set of beliefs, and it's all based on Torah. The differences in Jewish belief are differences in Torah observance, not in the theology itself. For instance, there is only one set of belief in the afterlife. Different Jews of different levels of observance will find that one set of beliefs more or less relevant in their lives, depending on how important belief is to them in the first place.
Another way to look at it, (perhaps over-simplified but relevant), is we have Reform, Conservative and Orthodox Jews. Reform Jews tend to be culturally Jewish but not terribly connected to Torah concepts. This is by far the largest group of Jews in America. There is a sub-branch of Reform called Conservative. You know what, before I go on and inflame my Jewish fellow posters here, just read this link, which will explain better than I can:
Okay, I'm beginning to understand, and thank you for the link.
You said in the christianity forum that the ten commandments are different in the Torah than they are, in say, the King James. Can you explain the difference?
Okay, I'm beginning to understand, and thank you for the link.
You said in the christianity forum that the ten commandments are different in the Torah than they are, in say, the King James. Can you explain the difference?
Thank you,
Katie
Walter gave a quick explanation in the other thread, I recall. He had a link to support it as well, I beleive. If he doesn't respond to this question in the next day or so, I'll try to get more specific with you.
But the first commandment in the Torah is:
1. I am the Lord your G-d, who took you out of Mitzrayim (Egypt)
According to Judaism 101: Aseret ha-Dibrot: The "Ten Commandments", Judaism, unlike Catholicism and Protestantism, considers "I am the L-rd, your G-d" to be the first "commandment." Catholicism, unlike Judaism and Protestantism, considers coveting property to be separate from coveting a spouse. Protestantism, unlike Judaism and Catholicism, considers the prohibition against idolatry to be separate from the prohibition against worshipping other gods.
Additionally, what translation should we use? Should Judaism's sixth declaration be rendered as "Thou shalt not kill" as in the popular KJV translation, or as "Thou shalt not murder," which is a bit closer to the connotations of the original Hebrew though still not entirely accurate?
Should Judaism's sixth declaration be rendered as "Thou shalt not kill" as in the popular KJV translation, or as "Thou shalt not murder," which is a bit closer to the connotations of the original Hebrew
I know the Talmud goes into great detail explaining the difference between murder and killing. One must have the benefit of the Oral Torah to properly understand this concept. Only the Jews have that, of course.
I feel like I have been on a tireless quest to explain what bad taste it is for Chrsitians to tell Jews what's in the Torah.
If Chrstians would be intellectually honest, and just admit the "OT" is simply a man-made book loosely based on the Torah, and that they have no idea what any of the Torah means (since they have no Oral Torah, i.e. guidebook, toi explain it), then I could sit back and sing cumbaya with you folks. I'm cool with your NT. That book doesn't exist to me, so love it all you want - I hope it guides you to good decisions in life.
According to Judaism 101: Aseret ha-Dibrot: The "Ten Commandments", Judaism, unlike Catholicism and Protestantism, considers "I am the L-rd, your G-d" to be the first "commandment." Catholicism, unlike Judaism and Protestantism, considers coveting property to be separate from coveting a spouse. Protestantism, unlike Judaism and Catholicism, considers the prohibition against idolatry to be separate from the prohibition against worshipping other gods.
Additionally, what translation should we use? Should Judaism's sixth declaration be rendered as "Thou shalt not kill" as in the popular KJV translation, or as "Thou shalt not murder," which is a bit closer to the connotations of the original Hebrew though still not entirely accurate?
Thank you for posting this link. I found it very informative and helpful. I still have more to read. There are many links to explore within the link.
Walter gave a quick explanation in the other thread, I recall. He had a link to support it as well, I beleive. If he doesn't respond to this question in the next day or so, I'll try to get more specific with you.
But the first commandment in the Torah is:
1. I am the Lord your G-d, who took you out of Mitzrayim (Egypt)
Our friend on the christianity forum needs to read the link Walter provided. If she did, she wouldn't come away believing what she does about
the sabbath.
I know the Talmud goes into great detail explaining the difference between murder and killing. One must have the benefit of the Oral Torah to properly understand this concept. Only the Jews have that, of course.
I feel like I have been on a tireless quest to explain what bad taste it is for Chrsitians to tell Jews what's in the Torah.
If Chrstians would be intellectually honest, and just admit the "OT" is simply a man-made book loosely based on the Torah, and that they have no idea what any of the Torah means (since they have no Oral Torah, i.e. guidebook, toi explain it), then I could sit back and sing cumbaya with you folks. I'm cool with your NT. That book doesn't exist to me, so love it all you want - I hope it guides you to good decisions in life.
I think you are opening the eyes to some of us. Honestly, I had no idea that the "OT" was not the same as the Jewish Torah, and I doubt many others did either. Although, I'm not surprised, as I can clearly see that there are numerous errors in our OT. Not to mention the contradictions and errors in the NT.
That is what's so great about these forums for people who listen with open minds. You learn a lot.
I know the Talmud goes into great detail explaining the difference between murder and killing. One must have the benefit of the Oral Torah to properly understand this concept. Only the Jews have that, of course.
I feel like I have been on a tireless quest to explain what bad taste it is for Chrsitians to tell Jews what's in the Torah.
If Chrstians would be intellectually honest, and just admit the "OT" is simply a man-made book loosely based on the Torah, and that they have no idea what any of the Torah means (since they have no Oral Torah, i.e. guidebook, toi explain it), then I could sit back and sing cumbaya with you folks. I'm cool with your NT. That book doesn't exist to me, so love it all you want - I hope it guides you to good decisions in life.
Hi Flip,
If you get sick of my questions, let me know. I do appreciate your patience. I have learned a lot from this thread.
My next question is this. Who is God speaking to in Genesis 1:26 when He says, "Let US make man in OUR image."
Do Jews see the US and the OUR as the future Messiah?
I think you are opening the eyes to some of us. Honestly, I had no idea that the "OT" was not the same as the Jewish Torah, and I doubt many others did either. Although, I'm not surprised, as I can clearly see that there are numerous errors in our OT. Not to mention the contradictions and errors in the NT.
That is what's so great about these forums for people who listen with open minds. You learn a lot.
What I found most interesting is that the ten sayings include all of the commandments (613), not just ten. There are many sub categories which fall under each of the main ten categories. That makes perfect sense to me.
Katie
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