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Old 04-02-2012, 01:03 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,868 posts, read 12,529,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looktowindward View Post
I'm sure I don't have to say this, but "Falasha" isn't a cool thing to say. Its a slur used by Ethiopians meaning "foreigners". The exact same sort of slur used against Jews is Europe. Beta Israel is the preferred term.

The Jewishness of these folks was "decided" 600 years ago. And I was under the impression that questioning it was actually forbidden by several well respected Rabbis.

It was decided by a rabbi 600 years ago based on knowledge available at the time. That knowledge is now considered to be incorrect by professional historians, who believe that the Beta Israel (I think in a forum like this it may be better to use the more widely used term, but I wont quibble) are in fact descended from gentile ethiopians who "judaized" - adopted what they saw from reading scripture as the right "OT" way as many othe judaizing groups have done. The question is, what do we do when we have a rabbinic precedent explicitly based on secular knowledge, that turns out to be incorrect? At least in this case the Conservative movement has accepted the rabbinic precedent, and some O Jews have not, IIUC.

"In 1973 Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, then the Chief Sephardic Rabbi, based on the Radbaz and other accounts, ruled that the Beta Israel were Jews and should be brought to Israel. He was later joined by a number of other authorities who made similar rulings, including the Chief Ashkenazi Rabbi Shlomo Goren.[40]
Other notable poskim, from non-Zionist Ashkenazi circles, placed a halakhic safek (doubt) over the Jewishness of the Beta Israel. Such dissenting voices include rabbis Rabbi Elazar Shach, Rabbi Yosef Shalom Eliashiv, Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, and Rabbi Moshe Feinstein.[41][42] Similar doubts were raised within the same circles towards Bene Israel Jews,[43] and Russian immigrants to Israel in the 1990s.
In the 1970s and early 1980s the Beta Israel were forced to undergo a modified conversion ceremony involving immersion in a ritual bath, a declaration accepting Rabbinic law, and, for men, a "symbolic recircumcision".[44] Chief Rabbi Avraham Shapira later waived the "symbolic recircumcision" demand, which is only required when the halakhic doubt is significant.[45] More recently Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar has ruled that descendants of Ethiopian Jews who were forced to convert to Christianity are "unquestionably Jews in every respect".[46] With the consent of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, Rabbi Amar ruled that it is forbidden to question the Jewishness of this community, pejoratively called Falashmura.[47] [48]"
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Old 04-02-2012, 01:08 PM
 
4,729 posts, read 4,351,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
But I beleive that Jesus was not the messiah, and I look forward to the first and only coming of the messiah. And THAT is the jewish approach to the messiah, ergo, I am a messianic Jew and the jews for Jesus are NOT.
Correct! (I thought your excellent quote above should anchor this page, BBD)
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Old 04-02-2012, 01:12 PM
 
4,729 posts, read 4,351,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
It was decided by a rabbi 600 years ago based on knowledge available at the time. That knowledge is now considered to be incorrect by professional historians, who believe that the Beta Israel (I think in a forum like this it may be better to use the more widely used term, but I wont quibble) are in fact descended from gentile ethiopians who "judaized" - adopted what they saw from reading scripture as the right "OT" way as many othe judaizing groups have done. The question is, what do we do when we have a rabbinic precedent explicitly based on secular knowledge, that turns out to be incorrect? At least in this case the Conservative movement has accepted the rabbinic precedent, and some O Jews have not, IIUC.

"In 1973 Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, then the Chief Sephardic Rabbi, based on the Radbaz and other accounts, ruled that the Beta Israel were Jews and should be brought to Israel. He was later joined by a number of other authorities who made similar rulings, including the Chief Ashkenazi Rabbi Shlomo Goren.[40]
Other notable poskim, from non-Zionist Ashkenazi circles, placed a halakhic safek (doubt) over the Jewishness of the Beta Israel. Such dissenting voices include rabbis Rabbi Elazar Shach, Rabbi Yosef Shalom Eliashiv, Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, and Rabbi Moshe Feinstein.[41][42] Similar doubts were raised within the same circles towards Bene Israel Jews,[43] and Russian immigrants to Israel in the 1990s.
In the 1970s and early 1980s the Beta Israel were forced to undergo a modified conversion ceremony involving immersion in a ritual bath, a declaration accepting Rabbinic law, and, for men, a "symbolic recircumcision".[44] Chief Rabbi Avraham Shapira later waived the "symbolic recircumcision" demand, which is only required when the halakhic doubt is significant.[45] More recently Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar has ruled that descendants of Ethiopian Jews who were forced to convert to Christianity are "unquestionably Jews in every respect".[46] With the consent of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, Rabbi Amar ruled that it is forbidden to question the Jewishness of this community, pejoratively called Falashmura.[47] [48]"
Good info there, BBD. This is not a subject I know much about, so I follow the poskin I respect, like Rav Eliashiv (may he have a full refuah shelemah), and Rav Aurback and Rav Moshe (their neshamas should have an aliya in shemayim).
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:13 AM
 
18,671 posts, read 33,290,630 times
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I heard a co-worker talking about plans for Passover the other morning and asked him if he was familiar with messianic Judiasm and he sort of mumbled that he heard of it. I asked him if knew anything about it, since what I'd been reading was that the Jewish establishment doesn't accept this, etc. He said he had only heard about it.
I went home and realized how rude (and inappropriate- at work!) my question was, and called and told Steve that I apologized for asking such a personal question at work, and don't know his stance or anything, and that it isn't my business, and I shouldn't ask such a thing at work. He said over and over that he didn't take it personally (?) and that if I was out of line, he would tell me. I am really grateful for that, because I can be like a bull in a china shop when thinking about something, and there are a lot of personal conversations at my job, anyway.
Thank you, Steve, and Happy Passover, however you celebrate.
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:35 AM
 
2,981 posts, read 2,924,048 times
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I've been catching the Jewish Voice at times over the years.

Last week the host was saying how
christians should not just be giving money to Israel.

But to thier ministry cause it's Jesus-Jews (my wording).
That when you just give money to Israel
it does not go for the cause of Jesus' ministry.
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:48 AM
 
4,729 posts, read 4,351,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brightdoglover View Post
Thank you, Steve, and Happy Passover, however you celebrate.
Brightdoglover, I doubt you offended him simply by asking. I get tons of questions about my oberservance at work, and I'm always happy to answer. I never offer first, but always respond when asked. And if someone were to aks me a more "controversial" question, like are these Jews for You-know-who really Jews, I'd probably just smile and shrug my shoulders. No need to get into a C/D type discussion at work.
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:09 PM
 
1,249 posts, read 1,728,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brightdoglover View Post
I heard a co-worker talking about plans for Passover the other morning and asked him if he was familiar with messianic Judiasm and he sort of mumbled that he heard of it. I asked him if knew anything about it, since what I'd been reading was that the Jewish establishment doesn't accept this, etc. He said he had only heard about it.
I went home and realized how rude (and inappropriate- at work!) my question was, and called and told Steve that I apologized for asking such a personal question at work, and don't know his stance or anything, and that it isn't my business, and I shouldn't ask such a thing at work. He said over and over that he didn't take it personally (?) and that if I was out of line, he would tell me. I am really grateful for that, because I can be like a bull in a china shop when thinking about something, and there are a lot of personal conversations at my job, anyway.
Thank you, Steve, and Happy Passover, however you celebrate.
I agree. It's not offensive, but it makes some of us nervous. Once time before I was ready to convert, a woman I thought was supportive (and we were at a fundraiser together so were stuck in a small dorm room for the weekend) of my conversion (wouldn't have volunteered it but her daughter was Jewish and knew about it) started talking to me about it. She tried really hard to change my mind all weekend.

She said Js for J was good because she kept pointedly commenting that "they recognize Jesus for who he really is". (All I could think of was, "What? A fellow Jew?" because that's what he is to me).

Interestingly, she was a gentile married to an "Orthodox" Jew. Not sure how that worked because most Orthodox Jews don't marry gentiles and travel and shop on Shabbat, so I'm not sure I was getting the entire story on that one.

It was unpleasant for me. I am sure your coworker knows that's not your intention.
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,567 posts, read 12,793,537 times
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The only real messianic Jews are the ones who are of direct lineage of the original followers of Christ...those that in modern days convert are not ...cos Christianity has gone so far astray from the original concept that is simply does not exist...
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,567 posts, read 12,793,537 times
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Whats wrong with a Jew believing in Jesus? He was a pretty smart rabbi...and out shone Moses or Abraham.....don't get it why the Jews don't like the king of the Judeans (Jews) as Pilate once called him...Even the Muslims see Jesus as a great prophet....after all Christianity is a Jewish sect...is it not?
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:25 PM
 
31,387 posts, read 36,978,939 times
Reputation: 15038
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
It was decided by a rabbi 600 years ago based on knowledge available at the time.
Just for s&g's what say you my friend to these findings:
Reporting in the April issue of PLoS Genetics, the researchers found that modern day Jews can attribute about 3% to 5% of their ancestry to sub-Saharan Africans, and that the exchange of genes between Jews and sub-Saharan Africans occurred approximately 72 generations, or about 2,000 years, ago.

Priya Moorjani, a doctoral student in Reich’s lab who led the research, was surprised that the degree of African DNA was so consistent across the various Jewish populations. She had expected, for example, that North African and Middle Eastern Jews would have a greater degree of genetic mingling than Europeans, based on their geographic proximities.

So the findings, Moorjani said, may point to a shared ancestry among the various Jewish groups. “It’s definitely suggestive that most Jewish populations have a common ancestral population,” she said.

Read more: Genes Tell Tale of Jewish Ties to Africa
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