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Old 05-30-2012, 03:48 PM
 
3,022 posts, read 1,256,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1+1=5 View Post
Honestly, I haven't decided what's a more imminent threat - evangelicals that target us (and others, I suppose), or assimilation. I used to vehemently oppose evangelicals, and still do, but I think assimilation is our true problem. Orthodox people like you have clearly resisted that, but to more secular Jews, it's an ongoing battle.

To answer your question, I think they truly believe that if we are not "saved" then we are going to hell, or so I've been told. I've had many concerned people try to tell me this, including (most recently) a Christian from Israel. I was the most surprised at this one. Being a former Christian, though, I can tell you that they preach much harder at Jews than they do at a Christian from another branch, at least that's been my experience.

I forgive the Christians that do it - but the Jews for Jesus? I really resent that organization.
1+1=5, I think it's important that you understand the Jews for Jesus movement is an evangelical organization that was created for one and only one purpose - to convert Jews.

I have learned here at C-D that there are well-meaning Chrstians who have adopted Jewish practices and beliefs, and that doesn't bother me. As I have said many times in this thread, they can pray however they want to in their churches. It's only when they take these hybrid Chrstian/Jewish beliefs, and use them to target Jews into leaving their faith to accept their man-god that I take issue.

 
Old 05-30-2012, 03:48 PM
 
Location: small Southern town balabusta
1,011 posts, read 700,779 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
cmforte, yes, I would say Chrstians are more tolerant than Jews when it comes to "switching team logos." From what I understand, it's not uncommon for Chrstians to switch denominations many times in their lives - sometimes out of a change in belief, and other times out of convenience. But in my experience in knowing many who have converted to Judaism, these former Chrstians in nearly every situation I have known have given up their family (being shunned), have given up their job (not being able to work on Saturdays), have given up their name (when doing an Orthodox conversion, the convert assumes a Hebrew name) and so on.
People that understand the work that a convert to Judaism does and are not dismissive of the efforts and difficulty have a special place in my heart, always. Thank you.
 
Old 05-30-2012, 03:51 PM
 
Location: small Southern town balabusta
1,011 posts, read 700,779 times
Reputation: 593
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
1+1=5, I think it's important that you understand the Jews for Jesus movement is an evangelical organization that was created for one and only one purpose - to convert Jews.

I have learned here at C-D that there are well-meaning Chrstians who have adopted Jewish practices and beliefs, and that doesn't bother me. As I have said many times in this thread, they can pray however they want to in their churches. It's only when they take these hybrid Chrstian/Jewish beliefs, and use them to target Jews into leaving their faith to accept their man-god that I take issue.
Oh, I agree on all accounts. I was rambling, so here are my beliefs which I was trying to point out originally:

--assimilation of people born or converted into Judaism into secular ways is a problem and a huge issue

--evangelical Christians think they are doing a good thing so can be forgiven/redirected many times

--Jews for Jesus - too ugly of a concept for me to comment on without ranting like a lunatic.
 
Old 05-30-2012, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Southern California
1,435 posts, read 666,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Have any of you ever driven by a Jews for Buddhists temple? What about a Jews for Wiccan Temple?

Quote:
You haven't been here long, have you? Christian missionaries have gone out to all parts of the world and have preached to Buddhists, Hindus, and yes, Wiccans. Just look at this board and see how many Wiccans complain about christians preaching to them. The "Jews for Jesus" have their own unique and complex historry and ideaology. Some are really REAL Jews who believe in Jesus. And they do not represent christianity in general. Only themselves.
Of course you have not. But in my town, there are multiple Jews for Jesus churches. And why?

Quote:
Why not? Is there some law against that?
Because the Chrstian missionary movement has specifically targeted the Jews and have organized to proselytize to this single community in ways so profoundly disturbing and so well funded and organized, that I can only come to the conclusion that it's the single most important focus to those who proselytize.

Quote:
So what? It's a free country. You don't like it, say so, then move on. And your conclusion is your conclusion. Doesn't mean it is a fact.
And as a member of the community being victimized (it's like being religiously sodomized by my neighbors),

Quote:
lol Victimized? Explain how. Just by having a different religious opinion presented to you? How does that victimize you? Then I guess a lot of people are being victimized on this forum every single day!! I should sue City-Data for damages!! Haven't you seen all the anti-Catholic bigotry I face on this board?
I am standing up and saying enough! Knock it off. Pray however you want in your churches, but leave my fellow Jews alone.

Quote:
Why don't you tell them to leave Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and atheists alone? What is so special about Jews that they are alone untouchable?
What you are doing is immoral, and from my persepctive, there's no way G-d could possibly approve of these dispicable practices of preying on the weak.

Quote:
Your perspective yes. And as there is such a thing as anti-Semitism, there is also such a thing as being an anti-christian bigot and you are it. We don't call judaism and its practices "despicable". (And yes preaching to "all nations" that would include Jews is a part of christainty.

So if the "end times" started tomorrow, per Chrstian dogma, and 144,000 Jews either converted on their own free will or forcefully,

Quote:
Not forcefully. Where do you get that from?
what happens to the other 12-14 million Jews in the world who do not survive?

Quote:
I don't know. I don't believe this Evangelical end-time stuff. But you do know that it is christian dogma that EVERYONE who doesn't except Jesus might go to Hell, right? Not just possibly Jews. But it is the Evangelicals that preach that Jews will be saved, no matter what. Ask them why. Personally, I don't make those judgements. I leave it up to God.
Who exactly is assisting their Facebook status change from "making breakfast pancakes" to "no longer in existence," if not for the Chrstians whose dogma it is in the first place to suddenly have 90+% of the Jews on earth die?
Die? Where do you get this tripe from? Who says 90%+ of Jews will die? And least of all by the hands of christians? Is that the official teachings of "Jews for Jesus" and Messianic Jews? Because it certainly isn't of most christians, like the Catholic Church. And again it' not just 90% of Jews that might not be saved at the end times, but possibly 90% of everyone, according to most christian beliefs. Though, again, I don't make that judgement.
 
Old 05-30-2012, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
3,334 posts, read 3,295,930 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmforte View Post
Because it certainly isn't of most christians, like the Catholic Church.
True, they gave it up after the Inquisition turned out to be too much of a hassle.
 
Old 05-30-2012, 05:54 PM
 
Location: Southern California
1,435 posts, read 666,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fullback32 View Post
True, they gave it up after the Inquisition turned out to be too much of a hassle.
Actually, if you've been paying attention in the last few decades, the RCC has made amends with the Jewish community. This was based on a sincere act of contrition and reach out for reconciliation, not based on the selfish motivations you imply.
 
Old 05-30-2012, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
3,334 posts, read 3,295,930 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmforte View Post
Actually, if you've been paying attention in the last few decades, the RCC has made amends with the Jewish community. This was based on a sincere act of contrition and reach out for reconciliation, not based on the selfish motivations you imply.
Actually I know what is going on with the RCC. I grew up Catholic, went to Catholic School K-12, confirmed, the whole thing. Granted, it never took fully thankfully to my tribal elders and left it in 1984, I still know what is happening with it.

I am also painfully aware of its history both in Europe and when it was brought to these shores. I know of the effect it had/has on Indian people. Many are unaware that RCC brought the Inquisition to the Americas as well the mission system which stripped so many indigenous people of their identity, language, traditions and lives.

Despite my disdain for Christianity, particularly in its Fundamentalist form, I do recognize and appreciate the top education I received from the Cistercian and Jesuit Fathers that ran the schools I attended. I do not, however, appreciate the beatings and being essentially forced into that religion. I do not appreciate having one priest tell me that, in the long run, the Christianization of the Nations was a good thing as it saved our souls. Our souls were just fine before 1492.

Now, all that being said, there is a Catholic School serving the needs of the Lakota people up in South Dakota. They are not forcing the children to convert, they allow Lakota spiritual elders to work with the children, hold Lakota language classes and even hold a school powwow. This is a long step forward for the RCC and hope it continues in this way. Though its past will not and should not be forgotten nor will I ever return to it, it will be good for it to "place nice with others."

Last edited by Fullback32; 05-30-2012 at 08:57 PM..
 
Old 05-31-2012, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
3,334 posts, read 3,295,930 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
From what I get from cmforte in this thread, everything is fair game. Do you all believe it's an anything goes world out there, where short of violence, no practices are off the table in the Chrstian's quest to convert the non-Chrstian?
No, not at all. It is a matter of respect. Bugging the crap out of people, using the equivalent of covert tactics and even the political system to further what can be argued as make-believe nonsense (and that goes for all religions) is not only disrespectful to other cultures, but borders on lunacy. Let's face it, none of us can actually prove the reality of our beliefs.

It's not like Christianity is new. Everyone, at least in this country, knows what it is. If they don't, there are plenty of resources to find out the specifics especially with the internet around. The days of their god requiring wide-eyed acolytes to go around irritating others are over (not that they were appreciated in the first place.) It boils down to a feeling of superiority on their part, regardless of what they say about caring for the soul. They have the right answer and, by god, you're going to get with the program. Personally, I would prefer to handle them the way my Comanche ancestors handled any unwanted intruders in the old days. It is an invasion of privacy, simple as that. If they would just shut the hell up and mind their own affairs, there would be no problem. If I wish to know about their religion, I'll ask, thank you very much.

They will scream about the 1st Amendment, yet fail to realize that their rights end where mine begin, to use an old cliche. We all have the right to not have a product incessantly presented to us and religion IS a product. Since we can no longer shoot arrows into their bodies and leave them to rot on the prairie as food for the coyote and vulture, how do we make it known that we are not interested and make them go away to their own affairs? Problem is, they won't. To paraphrase a line from The Terminator, "Listen, and understand. That evangelist is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, EVER, until you are saved."

Among North American Indian people, we have a shared belief that spiritual matters are personal and private. They are between Creator and the individual only and no person has the right to tell another what to believe. There is not one recorded instance of tribal fighting over religion. Yes, we fought amongst ourselves over many matters, but religion was never one of them.

I believe that Creator, whatever it is, is big enough to handle its own affairs and does not require the help of humans.

Last edited by Fullback32; 05-31-2012 at 10:40 AM..
 
Old 05-31-2012, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,059 posts, read 19,773,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checkered24 View Post
It is all perspective...

To a Christian, this missionary work is to "save" Jewish souls. To a non Christian, it may appear they are trying to steal/destroy/mislead Jewish souls.
Well now...that's a fascinating way to put it. Makes it sound as though the Christians are "right," and everyone else is "wrong" to try and keep them from doing their work.

If you read that and suspected I might not be Christian, you've grabbed the brass ring. I happen to be Jewish. And I happen to think that everyone would be much better off if those pious Christians would show a little consideration for everyone else. Being "saved" is a particular viewpoint...theirs.
 
Old 05-31-2012, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Canada
839 posts, read 468,260 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checkered24 View Post
It is all perspective...

To a Christian, this missionary work is to "save" Jewish souls. To a non Christian, it may appear they are trying to steal/destroy/mislead Jewish souls.

I cannot assume any individual's true motives, but a true Christian who believes he or she is acting in the Spirit of Christ is going to be moved to try and share and bring others to believing in Christ, because they believe it is the ONLY way to reach everlasting life with God. If the motives of these folks were pure in this regard, that is their motivation. Motivation doesn't always justify means either.


the idea that people need to be saved is dehumanizing, insulting and degrading. hasn't this destroy families, clans, tribes and nations? who are you to tell others they need to be saved?
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