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It is an extreme example, sure. I'm not comparing speech to violence. What I am saying is that even if you believe that your actions are right, it is not necessarily so. Trying to give your opinion when asked for it? That's okay. Trying to actively go out and convert people? Thats weird. That's icky. That's not ok, even if you believe you are commanded to do so.
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Why is it "weird"? Why is it not ok? Trying to "infiltrate" another group may be wrong, but this thread has evolved into a discission about christians following Jesus' commandment to share the Gospel. I wouldn't mind if a Jew tried to explain Judaism to me, even if they knocked on my door. I'd just say, "No thanks. I'm Catholic. But have a good day." I wouldn't over-react and say, "You're violating my rights!! You're despicable and that is weird!!"
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The point isn't to compare speech to violence.
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Yet you did.
The point is to show that just because you think something is the right thing to do doesn't make it right.
How is sharing one's opinions or beliefs wrong, though? If you don't like it, don't listen. It's a free country.
How is sharing one's opinions or beliefs wrong, though? If you don't like it, don't listen. It's a free country.
Again, if one is asked one's opinion, you should give it freely. You can even put up billboards proclaiming your belief! And yes, it is legal to go and annoy people by knocking on their doors and handing out fliers and the like.
But it doesn't make it "right." Especially when the purpose isn't to simply give an opinion, but to convert someone's beliefs. That's what is icky and gross. I've got no qualms with Christians (or anyone) explaining why they think they've got the answers when someone is curious and wants to know more. But when you decide it is the right thing to do go and convert people, that is when I take umbrage.
Basically, conversion attempts go beyond just "giving an opinion." It may be legal, but it's also wrong and terribly, terribly annoying to deal with.
He isn't referring to the Jews for Jesus as being deceptive just for existing. He is talking about Jews for Jesus going into Temples, in clandestine costumes, to scope out info to better convert people with. If the claims are true, these evangelists are essentially spying on Jews in the hopes of getting more information to convert them with. That's what he's referring to as deceptive: pretending to be something they are not for an ulterior motive.
What really bugs me about theflipflop is that he thinks christians are trying to kill Jews, if not physically then spiritually, when they try to share the Gospel with them even in traditional ways. Go back and look, look how this thread has evolved. If theflipflop would agree that he can not look into their hearts and minds and that they may have good intentions, that trying to "save" Jews is not the same as trying to kill them, then I would concede in this discussion.
Again, if one is asked one's opinion, you should give it freely. You can even put up billboards proclaiming your belief! And yes, it is legal to go and annoy people by knocking on their doors and handing out fliers and the like.
But it doesn't make it "right." Especially when the purpose isn't to simply give an opinion, but to convert someone's beliefs. That's what is icky and gross. I've got no qualms with Christians (or anyone) explaining why they think they've got the answers when someone is curious and wants to know more. But when you decide it is the right thing to do go and convert people, that is when I take umbrage.
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That is what we really believe though, and that is what we were commanded to do. It's a free country here in the US, so if you don't like it, tough. Your idead of what is "right" and "wrong" in this context is very subjective. And when someone shares an opinion, any opinion on anything, you really think they are just doing it to hear themselves talk? They are hoping you will eventually agree with them and "convert," in a sense, to their opinion.
Basically, conversion attempts go beyond just "giving an opinion." It may be legal, but it's also wrong and terribly, terribly annoying to deal with.
You characterization of it being "wrong" is subjective, not factual. Annoying it may be, but alot of things in life that is legal are annoying.
What really bugs me about theflipflop is that he thinks christians are trying to kill Jews, if not physically then spiritually, when they try to share the Gospel with them even in traditional ways. Go back and look, look how this thread has evolved. If theflipflop would agree that he can not look into their hearts and minds and that they may have good intentions, that trying to "save" Jews is not the same as trying to kill them, then I would concede in this discussion.
But from his perspective, any Jew who becomes a Christian is spiritually killed. Just as from your perspective, any Jew who becomes a Christian is spiritually saved. Both viewpoints are equally as "valid." So from your point of view, all this conversion is OK, but from his, he is seeing his brethren spiritually destroyed. All the good intentions in the world won't stop him from believing that Jewish to Christian conversions destroy souls. So while for me conversions are gross and wrong, for him conversions are a crime most high.
So from his viewpoint, "saving" Jews is "murdering them, spiritually."
If my religion commanded me to go and MURDER CHRISTIAN SOULS I'm sure you wouldn't be too keen on me hanging around your house, willingly attempting to murder your soul. I think you'd be rather miffed about it.
It ought to fall under freedom of religion. We Jews just want to be left alone to worship as we choose, and it doesn't hurt anyone else. Is that so difficult? If any of us want to convert, we know where to find people that can answer our questions. That's a choice. However, to knowingly try to infiltrate, trick us and harass us is unwanted.
When I was a gentile, I took it for granted that of course, everyone got to choose their religion and was generally left alone. As a Jew, being constantly told I'm going to hell for my choices and having religion brought up to me almost every day at work is very intrusive. It's still worth it, 110%, but it makes me think a lot less of Christians in general when we are called names and told all we have to do is believe in your man-god. It seems to me like more of a control thing, more of an "Aha! I've finally got my way!" than a genuine concern, lots of times. I respect a few Christians, but I personally think many more are misguided, worshiping the man-god and forgetting ALL about our Creator and what He wants, but I don't tell people that generally. We have our opinions and are too polite to attack Christians back most of the time. I really think the Jewish way is the true path but I try to respect others and just ask for the same.
What really bugs me about theflipflop is that he thinks christians are trying to kill Jews, if not physically then spiritually, when they try to share the Gospel with them even in traditional ways. Go back and look, look how this thread has evolved. If theflipflop would agree that he can not look into their hearts and minds and that they may have good intentions, that trying to "save" Jews is not the same as trying to kill them, then I would concede in this discussion.
I quite understand his views. Just put yourself in the position of finding that atheists were infiltrating your church (or whatever) pretending to be believers and raising a lot of 'questions' about the Bible? The whole idea being found to be to encompass deconverting them? (I would have said Muslims looking for converts to Islam but you'd suss them out in seconds ) wouldn't you feel miffed at the deception and feel that your spiritual life was being targeted?
That they felt -that we do feel -that it is really in your best interests would not cut any ice with you and understandably so. Of course you may feel it is justified for the christians to proselytize because you agree that what they are saying is true. We feel the same way and so do the muslims, about our differing arguments.
That is why I would never countenance sending ravening atheists into a church dressed up as sheep. The argument has to be presented as an open, honest argument to look at the merits of the case. Clandestine operations would not be approved by me and they should not be approved by you.
The only reasons that xians proselytise Jews is to bring about their deluded end of times beliefs. Seeing they cannot export the Jews to Israel by force or coercion, which would be the BIG sign, I guess they go for the next best thing, try and convert you all.
Some xian leaders like Hagge have accepted Jews have a covenant and need no "saving".
Of course I take both faiths with a pinch of salt but do give more respect to Jews. Never had a Jewish (or Muslim for that matter) knife in my back. I bleed from all the many xian knives and et tu Brutus does not mean diddly squat to the "true believer™"
If theflipflop would agree that he can not look into their hearts and minds and that they may have good intentions, that trying to "save" Jews is not the same as trying to kill them, then I would concede in this discussion.
I agree with you that the Chrstian missionaries do have good intentions in many cases. But it doesn't excuse the fact that with their good intentions, the end effect is that they are murdering Jewish souls. Doesn't matter if they use trickery or conventional methods. The end result is the same - Killing their souls dead.
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Originally Posted by Fillmont
But from his perspective, any Jew who becomes a Christian is spiritually killed. Just as from your perspective, any Jew who becomes a Christian is spiritually saved. Both viewpoints are equally as "valid." So from your point of view, all this conversion is OK, but from his, he is seeing his brethren spiritually destroyed. All the good intentions in the world won't stop him from believing that Jewish to Christian conversions destroy souls. So while for me conversions are gross and wrong, for him conversions are a crime most high.
So from his viewpoint, "saving" Jews is "murdering them, spiritually."
If my religion commanded me to go and MURDER CHRISTIAN SOULS I'm sure you wouldn't be too keen on me hanging around your house, willingly attempting to murder your soul. I think you'd be rather miffed about it.
If I add anything further to Fillmont's post, I fear I may take away from the fact that he 100% nailed my beliefs on the matter. Cmforte, is there any way you'll agree to re-reading Fillmont's post quoted above and comment?
Generally, I do not think Christians evangelize to Jews in order to legitimize their own faith. Christianity is well established. Maybe there are individuals who feel a need... I dunno. I just don't see that as a common motivation.
I also do not see it getting under the skin of a Christian that Jews don't accept Jesus as the prophesized messiah (if, you are implying whether it gets missionaries upset or angry).
From everything I have seen and discerned, there seems to be a special focus on converting Jews by evangelical Christian missionaries. To my way of thinking, the act of converting a Jew to Christianity appears to be a very great victory or triumph of some sort for the Christian missionary. The fact is, converting someone of one of the other religions might be satisfactory, but it just doesn't seem as important to these Christians than converting Jews. Just look at all the money spent, the time and effort invested in these missionary activities aimed at the Jewish community.
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Originally Posted by Checkered24
Technically, Christians want to convert all people, regardless of their faith.
Early Christians, such as the apostle Peter, initially believed that only Jews could be Christians. It was Paul who took the Gospel to the Gentiles (non Jews), and it was also Paul who moved Christianity away from Judaism by getting rid of the requirements of Jewish law (particularly circumcision) from Christianity so it appealed more to the Gentiles.
Since Paul, there has not been any need to legitimize Christianity through conversion of Jews.
As a Buddhist of Eurasian descent, the Christian missionaries usually leave me alone. They start quoting the Bible and I start quoting The Dhammapada.
I do not have to endure what my Jewish friends and neighbors experience.
Christians may want want to convert all people, but I am telling you emphatically that attempts to convert those of us in the Buddhist community are nearly non-existent ... there are no "Buddhists for Jesus" movements or organizations, no targeting of our temples, shrines, or neighborhoods, no slick missionary campaigns directed at us.
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) wouldn't you feel miffed at the deception and feel that your spiritual life was being targeted?
