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Old 07-26-2012, 09:04 AM
 
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OK, now that we're really cooking here (and taking our forum back, for the benefit of the Jews), let's step it up a notch. I know some here have said they are not waiting for moschiach to come, but is it fair to say that perhaps you don't really know much about moschiach? This link below breaks it down as simply and clearly as I've seen. I bet most of you will be shocked to see what normative Jewish belief on messiah really is:

The Messianic Era and the World to Come

Again, a few snippets from the link to encourage you to read the whole thing:

Quote:
The Messianic Era will be a better time for people in This World. The physical nature of this world will not change. People will still die, people will still be born, but life spans will be very prolonged. Disease will disappear entirely, pain will be eradicated, and all the curses Adam and Eve received for their sin will be nullified.

Women will give birth quickly and easily, without difficult pregnancies and without painful labor and childbirth.

Quote:
The Messiah will be our first king, and he will live a very long and fruitful life, teaching the world how to attain all these things, especially Torah.

The King Messiah, after a very long and happy life, will die. His son will become king after him, and continue his good work. He too, will die at a very advanced age. His son, the grandson of the first King Messiah, will be king until This World comes to an end, and the thousand years of desolation begins.

Last edited by june 7th; 07-26-2012 at 09:53 AM.. Reason: To adhere to copyright definition of "snippet" in formatting.
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Old 07-26-2012, 04:23 PM
 
Location: small Southern town balabusta
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Wow! Finally, something interesting and intelligent on this board besides.... oh, never mind.

Anyway, I think this is interesting. My understanding of the Olam Haba was based on my gentile background. May I ask two questions? Whose concept is this (I assume it is Torah-based?) and, what must we do to repent? Must all repent, or just Jews?

Thanks for the interesting and informative post.
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Old 07-26-2012, 05:49 PM
 
Location: SE Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
...but is it fair to say that perhaps you don't really know much about moschiach?
Thank you for your post and link! I think if fair to say you are correct in understanding moschiach. After reading your link and several other Orthodox Jewish sites concerning moschiach it seems that it will be up to King Moschiach to ingather all Israel back to The Land. How are we able to understand that moschiach will gather the tribes as opposed to Hashem gathering the tribes (according to Ezek 11:17)? Some comments on Ezek 16:55-61 have Judah reaching out to the 10 northern tribes that were exiled first. In this line of thought, it will be Judah (the Jews) that must begin the reconciliation with “her sister”, the 10 exiled tribes of the Northern Kingdom.

Can you add clarity to, firstly, who will begin the reconciliation: Hashem, moschiach, or the Jews, as delineated in Tanach? Secondly, if Hashem initiates the ingathering, then will this happen before moschiach? And if moschiach, what will be the role of Hashem and the Jews? But if the Jews begin the process does this not happen prior to moschiach and precede the role of Hashem?

And finally, does this not relate to the tread and posts speaking to the issue of tikkun, repair of Olam Hazeh (this world), and specifically to your thread “Fix yourself, or fix the world”, as well as other posts? Is it not the purpose of “baal teshuvah” (return of Jews to true Torah) for each one to “fix himself” so as to bring about “the repair of this world”, and in turn, speed the presence of moschiach?
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Old 07-26-2012, 06:17 PM
 
Location: small Southern town balabusta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1+1=5 View Post
Wow! Finally, something interesting and intelligent on this board besides.... oh, never mind.

Thanks for the interesting and informative post.
PS I read this post first and then saw some others. I want to make it clear that I was not referring to you or to most people here when I said, "oh, never mind". Suffice it to say the Judaism board is back with some interesting and intelligent discussion, though! Even if we don't agree on everything.
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:18 AM
 
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Lots of good questions in the few posts above. Let me start out by saying I am no expert on Jewish views of end times, although I am interested like many of you might be. I'll do my best to answer some of the questions. Perhaps we can work together to answer others...


Quote:
May I ask two questions? Whose concept is this (I assume it is Torah-based?) and, what must we do to repent? Must all repent, or just Jews?
We do not see any direct references to moschiach in the written Torah, but it's a subject discussed ad nauseum throughout the volumes of the Mishna and Gamara (Talmud). The Rishonim (the likes of Rashi, Rambam, the Ramban, Tosofos, the Bach, the Shach, etc) write at length on the subject as well. In many cases, like the Tanayim and Amorayim who came before them and are quoted in the Gamara, they argue. The reality is that Hashem did not give us much clarity on what end times will look like. And the brilliant men of past generations who did write on end times only had a hazy view of what it will look like. To say otherwise would be intellectualy dishonest.

With your question about repenting, Jews are for sure required to repent (the Hebrew word is to do T'shuva - which translates as to return, as in return to Hashem). I'm considered a Ba'al T'Shuvah (BT), someone who has returned to Hashem and His ways, as I was born into a home that did not value or understand Torah. In my 20s, I turned around to face the proper direction, and literally every single choice I make every day (should I eat this food, should I say that word, should I gaze at that person, etc) is a part of the T'shuvah I have committed myself to. The process is never finished. It's like walking up the down escalator at the mall. We can certainly walk up the down the escalator fast enough to head towards the top (peforming the mitzvahs and continually learning more Torah), but as soon as we stand still, what happens? Correct, we quickly find ourselves back at the bottom, mirred in the shtuss (nothingness) of secular society (a form of idol worship) and often too blind to see what we've become.

One of the Rav's who was makariv my family (took an interest in helping us discover Torah and Yiddishkite) at the beginning of our jourbey told us:

"Baby steps. You should always take baby steps. First, turn yourself in the right direction. Then take a small step (maybe light candles Friday night). Then another baby step (commit to yourself and Hashem that you will not answer your phone or turn on your TV from 2-5am on Friday/Shabbos night). Once you have that locked down, maybe extend the hours of no phone/tv to include Saturday/Shabbos morning. And keep taking baby steps. One day, you see you've developed quite a "tool belt" of Torah observance, which will strengthen you to continue the journey. But it's like climbing a ladder. If you take too big of steps, what happens? You slip. And you don't just slip, but you fall tothe bottom. With baby steps, you're more likely to head to the top without slipping significantly far at any point."

With regards to the goyim (the other nations of the world), they are not required to follow the 613 mitzvahs. They only have an obligation to follow the 7 Noahide Laws. If they are following those 7 (which believing Jesus is the same or part of G-d is a violation of one of the 7), they too will have a share of Olam Haba, the world to come. The Rambam says that when moschiach arrives, the Jews will no longer accept conversions to Judaism, because we will not know who is sincere and who is just joining the "winning team." Our jobs as Jews, will be to be a light unto the nations, demonstrating to the goyim how to get closer to Hashem by doing His mitzvahs.

WatcherOH, this answer wore me out. I'll answer your questions a bit later today, bli neder.
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Old 07-27-2012, 12:04 PM
 
Location: SE Ohio
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Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
We do not see any direct references to moschiach in the written Torah...
So this thread is more focused on HaMoschiach (The Messiah) and not just moschiach (anointed ones)…so the “era of the anointed” needs to be discussed more specifically than just the era of a restored Temple in Jerusalem and the reinstitution of the Kohanim (priests) and Melakim (kings)? I ask because there are over 20 uses of “moschiach” from Leviticus to 2Chronicles, in Tanach.

There is an additional references to “moshiach” in Psalms, Isaiah, Lamentations, Daniel, and Habakkuk. In Psalms “moschiach” seems to reference both the one to rule in the line of David, and possibly, the Jewish people (although I am sure there would be much debate depending upon one’s theological position).

Isaiah uses “moschiach” in reference to Cyrus, but uses the term “servant” as a term perhaps referring to “moschiach”, though not in every instance (as in Isaiah’s 36 references to “servant”, it is often individuals living during the specific events recorded [i.e. Isaiah himself, or Babylon/Sennacherib/Assyria] and is most often Jerusalem/Zion/Restored Israel/ Reunified Jacob, and with several accounts where “moschiach” is not specifically identifiable by the context—often disputed).

The book of Daniel has the following Hebrew phrase so if someone could help translate as the English version has “Messiah The Prince”: עַד־מָשִׁיחַ נָגִיד but still is not literally “THE Messiah”, and as “moschiach” only appears twice in Daniel is difficult to identify from just this context (although this has not stop much speculation).

I guess my point/question is this; “moschiach” does appear often in the written Torah, referencing to both the historical past (when Hashem lived among mankind in the Tabernacle/Temple) and in the prophetic future (when Hashem will once again dwell among mankind in a restored Temple). To add any mythological or magical element to the roll of a “moschiach” is outside the scope of Tanach and might distort the rolls of Hashem as The Restorer and The Redeemer of Jacob, a messiah(s) who will only be needed at the time Hashem regathers “all Israel” (won’t need a King Messiah until there is a Kingdom and won’t need a Priest until the Temple is restored) and during Today, in the Olam Hazeh, it is best to begin the only part one might have in the process…which is one’s own repentance and dependence upon the Redeemer and Savior of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob—The Almighty, Hashem.?
Just for your thoughts. Shabbat Shalom!
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Old 07-27-2012, 12:32 PM
 
3,964 posts, read 3,347,521 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WatcherOH View Post
Thank you for your post and link! I think if fair to say you are correct in understanding moschiach. After reading your link and several other Orthodox Jewish sites concerning moschiach it seems that it will be up to King Moschiach to ingather all Israel back to The Land. How are we able to understand that moschiach will gather the tribes as opposed to Hashem gathering the tribes (according to Ezek 11:17)? Some comments on Ezek 16:55-61 have Judah reaching out to the 10 northern tribes that were exiled first. In this line of thought, it will be Judah (the Jews) that must begin the reconciliation with “her sister”, the 10 exiled tribes of the Northern Kingdom.
Very interesting stuff, but beyond the scope of my current knowledge to give you an intelligent answer.

Quote:
Can you add clarity to, firstly, who will begin the reconciliation: Hashem, moschiach, or the Jews, as delineated in Tanach? Secondly, if Hashem initiates the ingathering, then will this happen before moschiach? And if moschiach, what will be the role of Hashem and the Jews? But if the Jews begin the process does this not happen prior to moschiach and precede the role of Hashem?
The Jews can only bring about the redemption through their efforts to perfect themselves by performing positive acts to counteract the current 2,000 year exile we find ourselves in. Why did Hashem destroy the Beis Hamigdosh and scatter the Jews all over the planet? Sinas Chinum (hatred towards our fellow Jew). We say that in every generation we that we fail to rebuild the Beis Hamigdosh, it's considered that we were partners in destroying it. Until we solve sinas chinum, we will remain in exile. It's nice that Jews currently have political control of many of the historic religous sites that are dear to us, but that's a far cry from declaring the ingathering to have already begun.



Quote:
And finally, does this not relate to the tread and posts speaking to the issue of tikkun, repair of Olam Hazeh (this world), and specifically to your thread “Fix yourself, or fix the world”, as well as other posts? Is it not the purpose of “baal teshuvah” (return of Jews to true Torah) for each one to “fix himself” so as to bring about “the repair of this world”, and in turn, speed the presence of moschiach?

Yes, this all relates to the fix yourself or fix the world thread. It's among the biggest questions that face the Jewish people today - a question that sadly the majority of us do not answer correctly. We can bring about the final redemption with our positive efforts to end sinas chinum, or we can wait for alternate end times scenarios to play themsleves out - most frighteningly the one that says others will retake Jerusalem and destroy the majority of Jews in the world, and only then will Hashem send moschiach to redeem the Jewish people. It's our choice: do it the easy way by connecting to Hashem with the mitzvahs, or do it the hard wait and let the goyim determine our timing and our ultimate fate.

There's a famous saying, that "either we Jews will make Shabbos for ourselves, or we can wait and let the goyim make havdallah for us."
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Old 08-10-2012, 09:48 AM
 
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Nice idea from Rav Chaim Kanievsky on Parsha Eikev, which we Jews will read in shul tomorrow morning:

Quote:
The Gemara (Avoda Zara 9a) says that the world will exist is for six thousand years. The first two thousand were empty before the Torah was given, the second two thousand are for Torah, and the last two thousand are for Moshiach. The Gemara then says that Moshiach should have come, but we are wasting time because of our aveiros (sins).
more at this link:

Rav Chaim Kanievsky: Remez for Moshiach in this Week’s Parsha » Matzav.com - The Online Voice of Torah Jewry
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Old 09-10-2012, 09:57 AM
 
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A big question that often arises, is why didn't the Jews in the times of the Beis Hamigdosh do t'shuvah (repentance) since their prophets were telling them a direct message from Hashem to change their ways, or this would be "IT." These Jews literally held onto their wayward ways until the last possible moment, when it became too late to save themselves.

How similar are we Jews in modern times to those fateful Jews in times past? Jewish history has painted clear roadmaps to tell us when it's time to do T'shuvah, and in nearly each case, we have failed to do so and have paid dearly with our lives. We are clearly not doing the T'shuvah required of us right now as well, as more than 80% of Jews worldwide do not follow the precepts and obligations set out for us in the Torah. And those of us that do, are often also lacking in critical middos (character traits) to endear us to our Maker and to our fellow Jew. We all share this responsibility to do better.

The destroy the Jews and destroy Israel rhetoric is currently at the greatest level seen in my lifetime - perhaps in many lifetimes. Messianic prophesy says the Persians and others will threaten the Jews mercilessly before the onset of end times, and sadly they will also be successful in their endeavor to kill Jews via armagheddon-like warfare. And furthermore, the world will sit by idely, including our supposed allies, and watch it happen without lifting a finger to help us at the time of need. As it becomes more and more clear that our current US government has a "you're on your own" mentality with regards to the Jews biggest existenstial threat, the Persians, not to mention our cousins that surround the Israeli's on all borders, these times are getting scarier and scarier.

I know the secular response is to draft more solidiers and build more bombers. And furthermore, to scoff at any Yid who suggests that davening to HaKadosh BaruchHu will have any positive effect. Whoa is to our current generation. As we approach the days of awe, may we all merit to understand that our relationship with the Ribono Shel Olam has never been of greater importance than it is right now, and may we all build this relationship and beg Hashem on our hands and knees to spare us just a bit longer, that we may have the opportunity to show Him we can do better, and merit the coming of moschiach and the building of the Beis Hamigdosh right now, in our time.
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Old 09-10-2012, 02:27 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
OK, now that we're really cooking here (and taking our forum back, for the benefit of the Jews), let's step it up a notch. I know some here have said they are not waiting for moschiach to come,
in the sense that they do not expect any moshiach in any form (whether a human being, or the "messianic age" of human progress beloved of classical Reformers?)

or in the sense not living day to day focused on moshiach?

I like the famous line "If you are planting a tree and someone tells you the moshiach came, first finish planting the tree, THEN go greet the moshiach" IE (my reading) make your first concern the improvement of haolam hazeh.
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