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So perhaps the terrorist attack in Itamar does not qualify as an act of Gods love but the Shoah does. Five people are too small, but six million are more than sufficient.
Where do you draw the line?
Was the recent Japanese tsunami a manifestation of God's paternal love? Almost certainly. After all, Israel's Carmel forest fire claimed a mere 44 lives, but this seemed to have been more than adequate to label it as the just response of a loving God to insufficient Shabbat observance,
But if 44 is enough, thousands are clearly more than enough. So tell us: what about the World Trade Center tragedy? For what reason were the nearly 3,000 victims of 911 loved to death?
Again: where do you draw the line? How far does the rot spread?
Were the dozen killed and nearly 60 injured in the Colorado theater enough to mark it in your eyes as the lesson of a loving father? The Sikh temple shooting in Wisconsin on the other hand only managed to kill half that number. Was it enough for you? Or is that too close to the number massacred in Itamar?
Trust me in this: no one, no one slanders Judaism as much as you have with this sick theology of blood-drenched chesed.
I don't draw the line. You keep asking me to, but that's not my job - that's Hashem's job to draw the line. I can try to understand, but many times my "understanding" falls short. That does not mean that in my limited capacity to understand that Hashem fails to control all events on earth. Did G-d bring the tsunami? You're darn right he did. Why? Beats me. But one thing I do know, is that with the realization that Hashem can bring an ocean wave and snuff out 250,000 lives in about 5 minutes, that darn sure inspires me to be the best me I can be. I've said it many times here in this forum, but it's never too late to do t'shuvah. And you can call Torah "blood drenched chesed" as much as you want, and some here may even believe you, but that does not make it truth. There's a cheshbon for all of our actions (and words).
I don't draw the line. You keep asking me to, but that's not my job - that's Hashem's job to draw the line.
You, not Hashem, told us that the Shoah was was an example of Hashem showing his love for us by disciplining His children. If you are to be the purveyor of this rot at least have the courage to own it.
Is it that Flipflop believes natural disasters happen because of his god's will whereas Jayhawker does not believe his god intentionally causes these things?
The issue being discussed goes beyond natural disasters, and includes actions such as rape, murder, and genocide. In fact, the comment that spawned this discussion stated that the Holocaust was God punishing the Jews.
Of particular relevance here is the section on Menachem Mendel Schneerson. The good Rebbe might well have been speaking directly to theflipflop and against his disgusting theology ...
Quote:
Menachem Mendel Schneerson
Most prominent among other Haredi figures who reject explaining the Holocaust as an act of divine punishment is the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, who described it as blasphemous to depict God in this way. The roots of this view lie in the Hasidic, mystical love of every Jew, even potentially unworthy people. Basing himself on many sources in classic texts of Judaism, from the "Revealed" to the "Mystical", the Rebbe articulated the view that the Holocaust was a decree from God that is beyond human understanding in this world. He stated:
"What greater conceit and what greater heartlessness, can there be than to give a 'reason' for the death and torture of millions of innocent men, women and children? Can we presume to assume that an explanation small enough to fit inside the finite bounds of human reason can explain a horror of such magnitude? We can only concede that there are things that lie beyond the finite ken of the human mind. It is not my task to justify God on this. Only God Himself can answer for what He allowed to happen. And the only answer we will accept, is the immediate and complete Redemption that will forever banish evil from the face of the earth and bring to light the intrinsic goodness and perfection of God's creation."
To those who argued that the Holocaust disproves the existence of God or His providence over our lives, Schneerson wrote:
"On the contrary—the Holocaust has decisively disproven any possible faith in a human-based morality. In pre-war Europe, it was the German people who epitomized culture, scientific advance and philosophic morality. And these very same people perpetrated the most vile atrocities known to human history! If nothing else, the Holocaust has taught us that a moral and civilized existence is possible only through the belief in and the acceptance of the Divine authority. Our outrage, our incessant challenge to God over what has occurred—this itself is a most powerful attestation to our belief in Him and our faith in His goodness. Because if we did not, underneath it all, possess this faith, what is it that we are outraged at? The blind workings of fate? The random arrangement of quarks that make up the universe?"
He rejected the suggestion that the Holocaust was a punishment for the sins of that generation saying:
'The destruction of six million Jews in such a horrific manner that surpassed the cruelty of all previous generations, could not possibly be because of a punishment for sins. Even the Satan himself could not possibly find a sufficient number of sins that would warrant such genocide! There is absolutely no rationalistic explanation for the Holocaust except for the fact that it was a Divine decree... why it happened is above human comprehension – but it is definitely not because of punishment for sin. On the contrary: All those who were murdered in the Holocaust are called “Kedoshim” – holy ones – since they were murdered in sanctification of G–d’s name..."
When we read theflipflop respond to the Shoah by proclaiming
"Sometimes a father has to discipline His children. It shows His love for us."
we can do no better than echo the Rebbe's words: What greater conceit and what greater heartlessness can there be!
In fact, the comment that spawned this discussion stated that the Holocaust was God punishing the Jews.
I couldn't find the comment about the Holocaust, but I found this comment:
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop
The truth is that the shoa nearly entirely destroyed Torah Judaism from the European continent in the 20th century. So we Torah Jews ask ourselves why?
Does "shoa" refer to the Holocaust?
Yeah, I guess Theists are a little puzzled when bad things happen, especially when people purposely do those bad things. They either think those bad people were affected by a sinister force like Satan or they think the victims were being punished, like when Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed.
I have always wondered why people think the Holocaust happened but, as you can well imagine, most people don't like to discuss this topic.
On the one hand, the good Rav Shneerson, of whom I do have enormous respect, said:
Quote:
why it happened is above human comprehension
And then he immediately ignored that idea to use his human comprehension and say:
Quote:
but it is definitely not because of punishment for sin.
So which is it? We cannot understand why it happened, as it falls in G-d's realm to understand what our needs are as Yidden? Or we mere mortals do and can have opinions on why it happened?
My basic belief is far from disgusting, as someone would have you believe. I can sum up my thoughts this way:
1. G-d controls all events, big and small, good and bad
2. All things that appear bad, may in fact be good, and vice versa
3. We mortals could never possibly fathom why the shoa (holocaust) happened. But G-d knows why it happened, as His "hand" in these events was unmistakable
4. When terrible things happen to us Jews, our first task is to seek to understand the events and attempt to determine if there are any key learnings we can take away in order to strengthen our middos (character traits) and our mitzvahs (our adherence to G-d's will)
Very interesting post, Jayhawker. I didn't see it until I wrote my previous post.
Of course, I didn't agree with all of it, especially this part:
"If nothing else, the Holocaust has taught us that a moral and civilized existence is possible only through the belief in and the acceptance of the Divine authority."
I read that one of my ancestors went on the Crusades, so I assume he had a "belief in the acceptance of the Divine Authority". He was a great warrior and specialized in killing Jews, and took a new name which meant "slayer of Jews", which led to my last name.
I don't think his life was a good example of a "moral and civilized existence".
This a Judaism forum. If you have something to offer other than childish generalizations and petty ridicule I'd be happy to address it.
Jayhawker, Hiker is an esteemed guest in our forum. Please treat him with the respect he deserves. He is a regular contributer to this forum - he brings VERY few pre-conceived notions to the table in his discussions with us. We could all learn from his respectful manner of communicating.
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