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Old 12-14-2012, 09:00 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,868 posts, read 12,529,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Sometimes I find it so funny how some Jewish women are so militant about wanting to be counted towards a minyan. Nearly all the Orthodox Jewish women I know would HATE IT if they were counted towards a minyan. Because that would mean they were OBLIGATED to attend minyan - 3 times a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. And if you only knew how many Orthodox men wish they WERE NOT counted towards a minyan, because the obligation and responsibility to daven in shul, with 10 men - 3 times a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, is flat-out exhausting at times.

My DD is quite comfortable with the obligation to daven to 21 times a week. She may miss occasionally, but she seems quite as observant of the obligation as most Modern O men I know.

She does like being counted - though she is also comfortable with the stricter but still egalitarian ten and ten approach taken by many independent minyanim.
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Old 12-14-2012, 12:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Sometimes I find it so funny how some Jewish women are so militant about wanting to be counted towards a minyan. Nearly all the Orthodox Jewish women I know would HATE IT if they were counted towards a minyan. Because that would mean they were OBLIGATED to attend minyan - 3 times a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. And if you only knew how many Orthodox men wish they WERE NOT counted towards a minyan, because the obligation and responsibility to daven in shul, with 10 men - 3 times a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, is flat-out exhausting at times.
Militant? Me? Never, unless someone is threatening the safety of myself or my family. And I'm not complaining, by the way. I'm happy how things are. I just remember that Jewish women cannot be counted in a minyan in the Orthodox shul, so I had to add that clarification for accuracy's sake.

Please don't get all flippy on me and type in caps to your friends unless you're talking about CHOMETZ since my sensitive feelings are still hurt from that one!
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Old 12-16-2012, 09:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1+1=5 View Post

Please don't get all flippy on me and type in caps to your friends unless you're talking about CHOMETZ since my sensitive feelings are still hurt from that one!
I only chose "all caps" because the italics print here at C-D is so understated.


And I know you're not complaining. I had those women of the wall ladies in mind when I wrote that. And BTW, it's commendable for a woman to say tefilla 21 times a week. But in terms of them doing it in shul, that would typically only be reserved for woman who are missing the key element of spirituality that Hashem gave them. A typically pious woman has no need for shul, as their spirituality should be entirely portable to wherever they find themselves in the world. For a Jewish woman, there should be no difference between davening in the shul and davening in their dining room. Women have a direct connection to Hashem and are not limited to davening in a minyan like a man, who is clearly a less spiriatual being and requires extra help to connect to Hashem. Bottom line, women are the superior spiritual beings (by Hashem's design), so i find it peculiar when women ask for egalitarian rights in shul, as that is the equivalent to asking to lower them on the pedastool and bring them down to level of a man.
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Old 12-16-2012, 10:49 AM
 
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Thank you. You have a kind heart and thanks for clarifying. "Militant" to me has so many negative connotations of loud, overbearing and unreasonable people that I became unreasonable when I saw that and assumed it was directed at me. I'm sorry I got my hackles up at you, wrongfully so.

I agree with what you said. I think Judaism starts in the home and it's become apparent to me that if it were up to my husband and kids, it would never get done. They take my lead, though. So, we lead, starting first and foremost in our Jewish homes.
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 1+1=5 View Post
I think Judaism starts in the home and it's become apparent to me that if it were up to my husband and kids, it would never get done. They take my lead, though. So, we lead, starting first and foremost in our Jewish homes.
Exact same experience in my home. My wife leads the way on all spiritual matters, and I try to always defer to her wisdom. She's simply a higher being than I am, and I trust her to know what's best for the family's spiritual health.
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Old 12-20-2012, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
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I've often wondered about the desire of some to convert to this or that. I have wondered if it's just the desire to follow the faith or if, included in that, is the sense of community and maybe identity that comes with said faith? I wonder about this as the bulk of Americans have no true culture or are completely removed from the parent culture of the ancestors.

The reason I wonder about this is that in our American Indian communities, we get these people who may have discovered by fact, familial hearsay or plain fabrication that they have a native ancestor. They go on to want to become one of us and even sometimes without regard to the actual tribe they are claiming (e.g. these 1/132 Cherokees who self-adopt Lakota ways). I have often thought this happens due to American alienation from any form of standing culture. They often forget that being Indian isn't a matter of learning some ceremonies, dances or words in one of our languages. Rather, it's growing up and living the community, having a certain world-view and mind set, understanding simple things like why certain things are funny to Indians and why some things are frowned upon and other things like that. I would assume that it is the same in the Jewish community. I don't know how one converts to a culture that took a lifetime to learn and became part of a person. There must always be some sort of feeling of being an outsider. Perhaps it diminishes over time, but I would think it may always be there even if it's at a subconscious level.

Do not misunderstand me, I am not bashing nor questioning the motives any who convert to your faith. Each person must find their own path to the Creator (as my Comanche elders teach). If the Jewish community is good with it, it is certainly not my place to question it nor pass any type of judgment on it. I am just curious as to why it happens.

For some of the folks who have not seen me in this sub-forum before, you may ask why I post here. It's because I find the Jewish culture fascinating. I also have a certain sense of affinity with Jewish people as your culture and mine have certain similarities as it pertains to our respective peoples' hardships.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:26 AM
 
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Ahhh, Fullback32 - one of my all-time favorite posters here at C-D. Welcome!

You are a wise man, and your post above is surely onto something. I think that's the reason why it typically takes 2-3 years for a full fledged halachic conversion to be completed. We Jews do not seek converts. But when somebody is sincere enough to change their life in a fashion where they are willing to accept the whole package (all 613 mitzvahs in the Torah), then they get to join the tribe as full-fledged members. One of the 613, btw, is that we born-Jews must treat the converts with respect and treat them in every possible was as nothing other.... than a Jew.

And BTW, those who convert to Judaism with less than a full halachic conversion, well, they too are still members of the Jewish nation and also should be treated with respect.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:37 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,868 posts, read 12,529,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
And I know you're not complaining. I had those women of the wall ladies in mind when I wrote that

My daughter has davened with Women of the Wall. They are not asking anyone else to count them as a minyan (they do not care if you refrain from saying kaddish till there are ten men present wherever you are) They only assert their legal rights to pray in a way authorized by the non O (and I think by a handful of O authorities, although that gets quite complex) in a place that belongs to the entire Jewish people, that was conquered for the Jewish people by the State of Israel and not by one group or another.

The militancy that is most troubling are people who commit acts of violence, who throw chairs and garbage, who shout insults, and who do that on shabbos and yomtov no less, in an attempt to stop them.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:42 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,868 posts, read 12,529,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Women have a direct connection to Hashem and are not limited to davening in a minyan like a man, who is clearly a less spiriatual being and requires extra help to connect to Hashem. Bottom line, women are the superior spiritual beings (by Hashem's design), so i find it peculiar when women ask for egalitarian rights in shul, as that is the equivalent to asking to lower them on the pedastool and bring them down to level of a man.
needless to say many do not share that view, and find it a way to justify what historically was a society in which men had power and women did not - and which followed, in that way, the gender roles of gentile societies of the time. Though there are many hints in our tradition, at a very different way of viewing women and men - hints which we have rediscoverd and refocused on in our time. Some of those are mentioned in the tshuvot I have linked to.
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Old 12-21-2012, 10:32 AM
 
4,729 posts, read 4,351,215 times
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Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
Though there are many hints in our tradition, at a very different way of viewing women and men - hints which we have rediscoverd and refocused on in our time. Some of those are mentioned in the tshuvot I have linked to.
I find egalitarianism to be very distasteful. It demeans the women, and I just won't stand for it.

Quote:
The militancy that is most troubling are people who commit acts of violence, who throw chairs and garbage, who shout insults, and who do that on shabbos and yomtov no less, in an attempt to stop them.
I agree 100%. That is disgusting behavior, entirely unfit for a Yid. Shame on those people.
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