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Old 06-16-2013, 03:17 PM
 
Location: somewhere flat
1,375 posts, read 1,218,892 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post
Joint heir with jesus, I recommend reading this book by a former Christian for Christians that should answer your question.

Restoring Abrahamic Faith: James D. Tabor: Amazon.com: Books
Thanks! Looks interesting. I read his book The Jesus Dynasty - very intriguing!

 
Old 06-16-2013, 07:34 PM
 
Location: kS.
505 posts, read 477,501 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB from NC View Post
Rebuilding the Temple, gathering all Jews to Israel, re-establishing the Davidic monarchy, ushering in world peace, spreading Torah to the world....

In other words, the ones that will the distinguish the messiah as the messiah.


I know that Christianity teaches that Jesus will do all these things when he "comes back", but that just reinforces the fact that it goes against Judaism. Our messiah will be a man; born of two human parents, and he will live and die like any other man.
If I was to play devil's advocate in debate with you guys (not my initial intention coming here- I wanted to speak directly to Israeli Jews) I would say that, maybe, you have gotten hung up on unfulfilled prophecies. Were you aware that there are some 6,408 prophecies in the Bible: 3,268 have been fulfilled while another 3,140 more are as yet UNFULFILLED or are currently being fulfilled. Maybe some of them were NOT MEANT to be fulfilled by the Messiah until the time of the gentiles is completely fulfilled itself. Future events can not come to pass until man's sinful history takes its course. I'm curious, does it say specifically in the Torah that ALL of these things must take place BEFORE the Messiah is revealed?

Do you believe you are sinners or that since there is no life after death it doesn't matter?
Thanks!
 
Old 06-16-2013, 07:50 PM
 
Location: Dallas, Texas
1,807 posts, read 2,165,015 times
Reputation: 970
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joint heir with jesus View Post
If I was to play devil's advocate in debate with you guys (not my initial intention coming here- I wanted to speak directly to Israeli Jews) I would say that, maybe, you have gotten hung up on unfulfilled prophecies. Were you aware that there are some 6,408 prophecies in the Bible: 3,268 have been fulfilled while another 3,140 more are as yet UNFULFILLED or are currently being fulfilled. Maybe some of them were NOT MEANT to be fulfilled by the Messiah until the time of the gentiles is completely fulfilled itself. Future events can not come to pass until man's sinful history takes its course. I'm curious, does it say specifically in the Torah that ALL of these things must take place BEFORE the Messiah is revealed?

Do you believe you are sinners or that since there is no life after death it doesn't matter?
Thanks!
Not to step on the toes of any Jews here who might want to answer, but I just want to make an analogy: In Islam, Jesus is considered a prophet, not a Messiah. That is a pretty fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam, correct? Well, how much would you appreciate it if Muslims habitually told you that your basic understanding of Christianity is wrong, and if you were to just look a bit harder at the Qur'an, you'd come to understand that Jesus was indeed just a prophet, not a messiah. I would suspect you'd brush off any such attempts outright.

That is essentially what you're doing here - you can't fit Jesus into a Jewish framework because it simply does not work. All three of the main Abrahamic religions are related, but they are not compatible.

As others have said: the Torah isn't just the Old Testament without the New; it isn't the case that Jews are expecting the same things that Christians expect, and Christians just got the wrong guy. There are fundamental differences between the two that go beyond "who is or who will be the Messiah.". You cannot expect to squeeze Judaism into your Christian framework and expect things to make sense.
 
Old 06-16-2013, 07:53 PM
 
Location: Long Island
1,718 posts, read 1,387,345 times
Reputation: 1410
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joint heir with jesus View Post
If I was to play devil's advocate in debate with you guys (not my initial intention coming here- I wanted to speak directly to Israeli Jews) I would say that, maybe, you have gotten hung up on unfulfilled prophecies. Were you aware that there are some 6,408 prophecies in the Bible: 3,268 have been fulfilled while another 3,140 more are as yet UNFULFILLED or are currently being fulfilled. Maybe some of them were NOT MEANT to be fulfilled by the Messiah until the time of the gentiles is completely fulfilled itself. Future events can not come to pass until man's sinful history takes its course. I'm curious, does it say specifically in the Torah that ALL of these things must take place BEFORE the Messiah is revealed?

Do you believe you are sinners or that since there is no life after death it doesn't matter?
Thanks!
If the messianic prophecies have not been fulfilled, then the messiah has not come.
It really is that simple.

As I said, it is the fulfillment of these prophesies that will allow us to identify the messiah.
 
Old 06-16-2013, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Long Island
1,718 posts, read 1,387,345 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillmont View Post
Not to step on the toes of any Jews here who might want to answer, but I just want to make an analogy: In Islam, Jesus is considered a prophet, not a Messiah. That is a pretty fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam, correct? Well, how much would you appreciate it if Muslims habitually told you that your basic understanding of Christianity is wrong, and if you were to just look a bit harder at the Qur'an, you'd come to understand that Jesus was indeed just a prophet, not a messiah. I would suspect you'd brush off any such attempts outright.

That is essentially what you're doing here - you can't fit Jesus into a Jewish framework because it simply does not work. All three of the main Abrahamic religions are related, but they are not compatible.

As others have said: the Torah isn't just the Old Testament without the New; it isn't the case that Jews are expecting the same things that Christians expect, and Christians just got the wrong guy. There are fundamental differences between the two that go beyond "who is or who will be the Messiah.". You cannot expect to squeeze Judaism into your Christian framework and expect things to make sense.
Well said.
 
Old 06-17-2013, 04:15 PM
 
Location: kS.
505 posts, read 477,501 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB from NC View Post
If the messianic prophecies have not been fulfilled, then the messiah has not come.
It really is that simple.

As I said, it is the fulfillment of these prophesies that will allow us to identify the messiah.
I got cha! Since no-one answered my question about whether or not those of the Jewish faith believe that they are sinners, I must assume you do. It's really, really hard not to believe that one is not a sinner. According to the NT, the Jews of Jesus' time knew they were and knew also that only God can forgive sin. Can I also assume that God forgives your sins directly without the need for the Messiah? If so I'm at a loss... what difference does it make since you do not believe that the spirit and soul live on after physical death? Why bother getting your sins forgiven? I'm confused.

Also, you obviously are not under the New covenant with Jesus but you don't still sacrifice animals for the forgiveness of sins under the law. When did animal sacrifices cease? By who's authority? Thanks you guys, I'm learning a lot!
 
Old 06-17-2013, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Long Island
1,718 posts, read 1,387,345 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joint heir with jesus View Post
I got cha! Since no-one answered my question about whether or not those of the Jewish faith believe that they are sinners, I must assume you do. It's really, really hard not to believe that one is not a sinner. According to the NT, the Jews of Jesus' time knew they were and knew also that only God can forgive sin. Can I also assume that God forgives your sins directly without the need for the Messiah? If so I'm at a loss... what difference does it make since you do not believe that the spirit and soul live on after physical death? Why bother getting your sins forgiven? I'm confused.

Also, you obviously are not under the New covenant with Jesus but you don't still sacrifice animals for the forgiveness of sins under the law. When did animal sacrifices cease? By who's authority? Thanks you guys, I'm learning a lot!
I didn't answer it because it was irrelevant to the conversation we were having. When we sin, we strive to make it right with the person we have wronged, and we repent before God. We do this individually when ever it occurs, and we do it as a nation on Yom Kippur. The sacrificial system ended with the destruction of the Temple, and we are forbidden to offer sacrifices anywhere else.

And you are correct, the messiah plays no role in the forgiveness of sins.
The Christian idea of the messiah has no place in Judaism.

As for why we care, it is because it is what our God commands of us. Many of us do believe in an afterlife, but the specifics are very vague, and it has little in common with the Christian ideas of heaven and hell.
But, even then, we don't follow Torah for the rewards we may or may not see in the World to Come. We follow Torah because we are Jews, and it is our duty as such to follow Torah.
 
Old 06-17-2013, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Dallas, Texas
1,807 posts, read 2,165,015 times
Reputation: 970
Joint heir, the nature of sin is one of the fundamental differences I mentioned in my earlier post. You cannot apply the Christian concept of sin to Judaism. It doesn't make any sense.
 
Old 06-17-2013, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Long Island
1,718 posts, read 1,387,345 times
Reputation: 1410
I understand where Joint Heir is coming from, though. Or at least I think I do.

I spent 30 years as a Christian, and the entire time I was told that everything that was taught came from Judaism; that Christianity was the continuation of it. Jesus was the messiah because the Jewish Bible told us he was. Sin could only be removed through his sacrifice because the Jewish Bible told us so. We were all born damned because of the fall of man in the garden, again, because the Jewish Bible told us so.

It was quite a shock to learn that it was all wrong. The Christian ideas of the messiah, sin, atonement, grace, and salvation (just to name a few) are so alien to Judaism that it can be hard to remembered that one came from the other. We look at so many things differently that is often nearly impossible to have a great dialogue (as this thread is showing). When Joint Heir thinks about the messiah, he sees Jesus as part of the Trinity; an expression of God Himself who came to earth to remove the stain of sin on any who ask for it. When I think of the messiah, I see a future religious and political leader who will re-establish the Davidic monarchy, return all Jews to Israel, spread Torah to the world, and motivate Jews to follow Torah.

Two completely different concepts that are wholly incompatible.

And it goes on and on.
 
Old 06-18-2013, 07:55 AM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,113,999 times
Reputation: 1399
JB from NC, I think you have been giving some very good answers.
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