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Old 06-24-2013, 08:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB from NC View Post
I'm not really sure how to explain in any more detail. It means that the Jewish people, as a whole, observes Shabbat in accordance with Jewish law.
Our liturgy tells us we are hoping for the day that is totally Shabbos, which Rashi tells us means the arrival of moschiach and a life, seven days a week, that looks and feels like Shabbos.

You see, on Shabbos, we Jews don't drive, don't turn on tv or radio, use no cell phones and don't post on the C-D forum. Instead, we spend the day immersed in praying, Torah study, eating and spending time with our family and community. That's what we expect moschiach will help usher in.

Pauline Chrstianty and their "messiah" has bastardized belief in messiah to an unrecognizable concept to us Jews, which is why we are so deeply disgusted by those lies and distortions.
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Old 06-24-2013, 04:46 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Our liturgy tells us we are hoping for the day that is totally Shabbos, which Rashi tells us means the arrival of moschiach and a life, seven days a week, that looks and feels like Shabbos.
OK, that is a good answer.

After a week or more of Shabbos, what will happen next?

Will you just get on with your lives or will good people enter heaven or will something else happen?

I understand if no one has thought that far ahead.
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Old 06-24-2013, 05:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
OK, that is a good answer.

After a week or more of Shabbos, what will happen next?

Will you just get on with your lives or will good people enter heaven or will something else happen?

I understand if no one has thought that far ahead.
One belief is that this time of the world being totally Shabbos will last for 1,000 years. This will be the "messianic age." The peacefulness and Shabbos like environment will get more and more profound as the messianic age progresses. Then poof, the next phase will begin, existence as we know it will change, souls will be restored to dead bodies, and I can't tell you the rest.
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Old 06-24-2013, 06:26 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
One belief is that this time of the world being totally Shabbos will last for 1,000 years. This will be the "messianic age." The peacefulness and Shabbos like environment will get more and more profound as the messianic age progresses. Then poof, the next phase will begin, existence as we know it will change, souls will be restored to dead bodies, and I can't tell you the rest.
That is a good answer. Thanks. To be honest, I am surprised the scholars have formulated such a complete plan.

Believe it or not, that is all the questions I have. Now I'm going to ask the Christians what they expect from their Messiah.
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:47 PM
 
Location: somewhere flat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Our liturgy tells us we are hoping for the day that is totally Shabbos, which Rashi tells us means the arrival of moschiach and a life, seven days a week, that looks and feels like Shabbos.

You see, on Shabbos, we Jews don't drive, don't turn on tv or radio, use no cell phones and don't post on the C-D forum. Instead, we spend the day immersed in praying, Torah study, eating and spending time with our family and community. That's what we expect moschiach will help usher in.

Pauline Chrstianty and their "messiah" has bastardized belief in messiah to an unrecognizable concept to us Jews, which is why we are so deeply disgusted by those lies and distortions.

I'm really offended at how you are always bashing Paul and Christians. The above is pretty strong language. I guess you really don't care about lashon hara toward non-Jews.

Also, isn't it possible that Jesus could Moshiach ben Yosef, the suffering messiah, in order to reach non-Jews. After all Jesus said "salvation is of the Jews."
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Old 06-29-2013, 10:33 AM
 
Location: somewhere flat
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Maybe I'm being a little harsh, myself, because it was not directly aimed at me, and, come to think of it the Talmud says it's on a par with the sins of sexual immorality, idolatry and murder. I also understand that Christians have done a lot to Jews in the past, so I understand some of the wariness you have towards Christians. I just would appreciate it if you wouldn't bad mouth Christians so much. Also, I would really appreciate your thoughts (or anyone else's) thoughts about what I said about Moshiach ben Yosef.

Shalom!
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Old 06-29-2013, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Long Island
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulJourn View Post
...
Also, isn't it possible that Jesus could Moshiach ben Yosef, the suffering messiah, in order to reach non-Jews. After all Jesus said "salvation is of the Jews."
Based on what i know of it, I don't see how. Messiah ben Yosef is said to be a military leader who will gather the Jews, lead them to Jerusalem, and lead the battle against the enemies of God and Israel. He will die in battle, and be resurrected by messiah ben David and serve as his viceroy.

Certainly doesn't sound like the story of Jesus that I grew up with.

To me, it seems that this avenue is just another attempt to introduce Jesus into Judaism, and, unfortunately, I all too often see it in tandem with attempts to lead Jews away from Judaism. I know many "messianic Jews" who will try this approach under guidance from their "rabbis" who have been ordained from Baptist seminaries (Just to clarify: Baptist seminaries cannot ordain anyone as a rabbi. They ordain Christian ministers, and only Christian ministers) and are funded through the various Christian organizations that include leading Jews to Christianity as part of the mission. And, while I know flipflop can speak for himself, it is often tactics like these, which are so very common, that foster such animosity in the Jewish people.

And I'm not accusing you of engaging in these tactics. Our interactions have been civil and polite, and I haven't known you to proselytize. You simply asked an honest question. But I think it is important to point out how others have used these questions in the past.
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SoulJourn View Post
I'm really offended at how you are always bashing Paul and Christians. The above is pretty strong language. I guess you really don't care about lashon hara toward non-Jews.
Lashen hara does not apply to non Jews. But to the point here, you should see that I make a distinction between my distaste of Chrstianity and Chrstians. The Chrstian people are like all other people - some good and some bad. My anger is towards Paul himself. It angers me that a non Jew came to create a unique and new religion, and he successfully gave it authority and "standing" by grafting these Gnostic/Hellinistic beliefs to the Torah, while at the same time abrogating everything contained in that Torah. And in the process, the church later stained the good names of Peter, James and possibly even Jesus by linking them to these Pauline beliefs, when they were no longer around to say "hey, leave me out of this new religion."
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Old 07-01-2013, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
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I thought Jews liked Paul because by not requiring conversion to Judaism to become Christian, he spread the Noahide Laws to the whole world. Granted there are problems with their conception of God as a trinity and that Christians don't care about whether their meat came from a living animal or not, but Christianity is a lot closer to the Noahide Laws than the polytheistic official religion in the Roman Empire at the time.

Also theflipflop is correct. Most of the teachings of Judaism about morals and ethics toward other people (bein adam l'chavero) apply only to fellow Jews. Teachings relating to non-Jews fall under different categories: kevod habriyot (honor for God's created beings) and darchei shalom (ways of peace).
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Old 07-01-2013, 11:57 PM
 
Location: somewhere flat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Lashen hara does not apply to non Jews. But to the point here, you should see that I make a distinction between my distaste of Chrstianity and Chrstians. The Chrstian people are like all other people - some good and some bad. My anger is towards Paul himself. It angers me that a non Jew came to create a unique and new religion, and he successfully gave it authority and "standing" by grafting these Gnostic/Hellinistic beliefs to the Torah, while at the same time abrogating everything contained in that Torah. And in the process, the church later stained the good names of Peter, James and possibly even Jesus by linking them to these Pauline beliefs, when they were no longer around to say "hey, leave me out of this new religion."
I really don't know where you get the idea that Paul (originally Saul) was a non-Jew, but I've discussed that before. However, I would be interested in some examples of where he melds Gnostic or Hellenistic beliefs with the Torah. I know he talked about gnosis and epignosis a lot and mentions about going to the third heaven, which I think is derived from Gnosticism or proto-Kabbalistic beliefs. (What, by the way, is your opinion of Kabbalah, which is known to incorporate some Gnostic-like beliefs.)

Paul definitely set a new course for the Jewish sect that became Christianity (which would eventually become unrecognizable to the apostles), while Jesus' brother James led the Jerusalem assembly which remained true to Torah, and which, according to many scholars, became the Ebionites, lasting until, at least, the fourth century. In the book of Acts, James gives a mandate to Paul (for what had become a predominately Gentile sect) that his adherents should be only required to follow a version of the Noahide laws: "to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood." I wonder, why do you care what Paul did, when he was only making knowledge of the one true God and Abrahamic faith accessible to the Gentiles?
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