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Old 07-02-2013, 10:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulJourn View Post
I really don't know where you get the idea that Paul (originally Saul) was a non-Jew, but I've discussed that before. However, I would be interested in some examples of where he melds Gnostic or Hellenistic beliefs with the Torah. I know he talked about gnosis and epignosis a lot and mentions about going to the third heaven, which I think is derived from Gnosticism or proto-Kabbalistic beliefs. (What, by the way, is your opinion of Kabbalah, which is known to incorporate some Gnostic-like beliefs.)

Paul definitely set a new course for the Jewish sect that became Christianity (which would eventually become unrecognizable to the apostles), while Jesus' brother James led the Jerusalem assembly which remained true to Torah, and which, according to many scholars, became the Ebionites, lasting until, at least, the fourth century. In the book of Acts, James gives a mandate to Paul (for what had become a predominately Gentile sect) that his adherents should be only required to follow a version of the Noahide laws: "to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood." I wonder, why do you care what Paul did, when he was only making knowledge of the one true God and Abrahamic faith accessible to the Gentiles?
I think there are multiple threads in the general and Chrstianity forums where I've addressed my thoughts on this matter. I apologize for pulling this thread off course with this line of thought, which is essentially irrelevant to the average Jew. I think the vast majority of Jews could care less whether Paul was a gentile or not. Your second paragraph above, BTW, all looks correct to me.

With regards to Kabbalah, it's entirely improper for a non-Jew to study it. Ever. And furthermore, a Jew should only study Kabbalah once they have reached the age of 40 and have no less than 35 years of intensive Torah study under their belt before they even begin to tackle Kabbalah. And then it should only be done via normative Jewish rabbinical leadership and study patterns. Anything short of that, and the risk of misunderstanding what you've read potentially becomes a tremendous harm to the Jewish people.
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:20 AM
 
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Quote:
think the vast majority of Jews could care less whether Paul was a gentile or not.
You mean couldn't care less.
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:38 PM
 
Location: somewhere flat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
You mean couldn't care less.
Maybe so, but there is no reason to believe he was not. He stated he was a Pharisee, his original name was Saul, and he hunted down Christians for the High Priest before his dramatic conversion. Although, one may not agree with his interpretations, he was certainly knowledgeable of the Torah. I've tried to be congenial and respectful on this forum, and there's really no reason to be rude. After all there are many goys, like myself, who post here.
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Old 07-02-2013, 03:20 PM
 
Location: Long Island
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I don't see where anyone has been rude. While Christians believe that Paul was Jewish, there is no reason for Jews to agree. And, honestly, it really doesn't matter to us; we're not Christians. The Christian Bible holds no authority for us, and isn't a valid source.

This isn't being rude. This is discussing topics from a Jewish standpoint, and that is the entire purpose for this section of the board.
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Old 07-02-2013, 07:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JB from NC View Post
I don't see where anyone has been rude. While Christians believe that Paul was Jewish, there is no reason for Jews to agree. And, honestly, it really doesn't matter to us; we're not Christians. The Christian Bible holds no authority for us, and isn't a valid source.

This isn't being rude. This is discussing topics from a Jewish standpoint, and that is the entire purpose for this section of the board.
I realize that the New Testament has no authority for Jews. That's fine. I just don't see how anyone can not take, at face value, what Paul says about himself or what Luke, in the book of Acts, says he is. I don't know of any other contemporaneous source that would confirm or deny that. And, then, later sources (which would be less authoritative) don't, as far as I know, deny it. Say all you want how wrong he is on this or that; I don't care. That's what these forums are for. But, I'm sorry, to deny a simple fact, and the flippant, blase' way it was put, is, yes, somewhat offensive. It's saying Paul and Luke were liars. If a Jewish source said so-and-so was High Priest a certain year or so-and-so was, say, a Gentile convert to Judaism, I'd believe it, unless some contemporary source directly contradicted it. I really don't want to belabor the point anymore. Let bygones be bygones.

I really would be interested to know what examples of statements by Paul were influenced by Hellenistic or, particularly, Gnostic philosophy. I also would be curious to know if Jesus, in any sense,
could be considered to be a Messiah for Gentiles alone, even if he wasn't, say, Moshiach ben Yosef, or wasn't Messiah, at all, for the Jews. I really would like to have anyone's honest opinion about this. After all, "Christ" is the Greek equivalent of "Messiah," and God promised to Abraham that in him "shall all the nations (or goyim) be blessed."
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Old 07-02-2013, 10:03 PM
 
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So ask your questions in the Christian forum.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by SoulJourn View Post
I realize that the New Testament has no authority for Jews. That's fine. I just don't see how anyone can not take, at face value, what Paul says about himself or what Luke, in the book of Acts, says he is. I don't know of any other contemporaneous source that would confirm or deny that. And, then, later sources (which would be less authoritative) don't, as far as I know, deny it. Say all you want how wrong he is on this or that; I don't care. That's what these forums are for. But, I'm sorry, to deny a simple fact, and the flippant, blase' way it was put, is, yes, somewhat offensive. It's saying Paul and Luke were liars. If a Jewish source said so-and-so was High Priest a certain year or so-and-so was, say, a Gentile convert to Judaism, I'd believe it, unless some contemporary source directly contradicted it. I really don't want to belabor the point anymore. Let bygones be bygones.

I really would be interested to know what examples of statements by Paul were influenced by Hellenistic or, particularly, Gnostic philosophy. I also would be curious to know if Jesus, in any sense,
could be considered to be a Messiah for Gentiles alone, even if he wasn't, say, Moshiach ben Yosef, or wasn't Messiah, at all, for the Jews. I really would like to have anyone's honest opinion about this. After all, "Christ" is the Greek equivalent of "Messiah," and God promised to Abraham that in him "shall all the nations (or goyim) be blessed."
Honest scholarship has shown that Paul invented the Eucharist and that Jesus likely never heard of this gnostic/occult practice. Clearly Jesus as a normative Pharissee would have been disgusted beyond belief if this had been practiced in his time.

And to a Pharisee (who were essentially no different than todays Orthodox Jews), its clear that Paul's writings and belief system in general prove him of being too low a caliber to have ever studied with the great Rabban Gamliel, who was perhaps one of the five most learned Jews to have ever lived. Paul was likely a convert, who converted under the authority of the same Sadduccees who employed him as a thug and kidnapper for the priests of the Beis Hamigdosh, who by the way were complicit with the Romans and all Hellinists. It's anti semitism for the church to claim the Pharisees were corrupt when truth shows that the Sadducees who Paul was connected to we're the corrupt ones. No small cooncidence that the Sadducees died out and disappeared over the next several centuries, and the world is filled with millions of Pharisees to this very day - mostly still being persecuted by anti Semites.
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:37 PM
 
Location: somewhere flat
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Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
So ask your questions in the Christian forum.
I just wanted a Jewish opinion. Christians would probably think I was crazy even asking these questions.
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:34 PM
 
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I just wanted a Jewish opinion.
Huh?
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:35 PM
 
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I just wanted a Jewish opinion. Christians would probably think I was crazy even asking these questions.
That tells you a lot about Christianity.
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