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Old 07-07-2013, 02:29 PM
 
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As for why he's so special, it's because, according to our religion, God chose him to to head the line that would rule over Israel and eventually produce the messiah.
...and G-d would only choose an exemplary person for this purpose.
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Old 07-07-2013, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Honest scholarship has shown that Paul invented the Eucharist and that Jesus likely never heard of this gnostic/occult practice. Clearly Jesus as a normative Pharissee would have been disgusted beyond belief if this had been practiced in his time.

And to a Pharisee (who were essentially no different than todays Orthodox Jews), its clear that Paul's writings and belief system in general prove him of being too low a caliber to have ever studied with the great Rabban Gamliel, who was perhaps one of the five most learned Jews to have ever lived. Paul was likely a convert, who converted under the authority of the same Sadduccees who employed him as a thug and kidnapper for the priests of the Beis Hamigdosh, who by the way were complicit with the Romans and all Hellinists. It's anti semitism for the church to claim the Pharisees were corrupt when truth shows that the Sadducees who Paul was connected to we're the corrupt ones. No small cooncidence that the Sadducees died out and disappeared over the next several centuries, and the world is filled with millions of Pharisees to this very day - mostly still being persecuted by anti Semites.
I'm curious where you get this information.

This is very interesting to me as a Jew and I have always wanted to hear the perspective of a Jewish person on the NT....someone who had actually read it. I've heard Christians give their perspective and I have heard some Jews, but never one who was raised and educated in an Orthodox community.

Obviously, with a Christian husband these things are of more importance to me than to many other Jews. We talk about these things quite a bit and honestly I'm a bit confused. I've heard the party lines from many messianics as well as Jews for Judiasm. But I've never heard from someone who has studied the documents themselves, rather than just reacting to the Christian interpretation of the NT. To be fair, the Christian interpretation of the Tanakh would have us believing that G-d is finished with the Jewish people and replaced them with the Gentiles. Why would we take their interpretation of what appear to be Jewish writings at face value without studying them ourselves? I don't feel qualified to do this, though, as I have not been educated in Jewish thought.
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Old 07-07-2013, 09:49 PM
 
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If one is to look at the NT from a Jewish perspective and to attempt to see what these documents say, and do it through lenses of a Jew ( after all these we're primarily Jews in these stories ), one can quickly see that the Church has weaved a complex after the fact cover up in order to drive their own dogma and agenda. But in many places, these later editors of the NT were sloppy or faced issues where they were simply unable to hide the truth.

Let me recommend you read "The Mythmaker, Paul and the Invention of Chrstianity" by Maccoby. Chrstians have largely banned this work because its so damning to their bible. But this work clearly disassembles the NT from a Jewish scholarship perspective. It's an easy read and a fascinating one.
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Old 07-09-2013, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
2,538 posts, read 4,697,102 times
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Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
If one is to look at the NT from a Jewish perspective and to attempt to see what these documents say, and do it through lenses of a Jew ( after all these we're primarily Jews in these stories ), one can quickly see that the Church has weaved a complex after the fact cover up in order to drive their own dogma and agenda. But in many places, these later editors of the NT were sloppy or faced issues where they were simply unable to hide the truth.

Let me recommend you read "The Mythmaker, Paul and the Invention of Chrstianity" by Maccoby. Chrstians have largely banned this work because its so damning to their bible. But this work clearly disassembles the NT from a Jewish scholarship perspective. It's an easy read and a fascinating one.
I'll put it on my list. Thanks for the recommendation. Have you also read The Irony of Galatians by Mark Nanos? He won the National Jewish Book Award for Jewish/Christian relations for a different book. Here is the description from Amazon:

"After taking on traditional interpretations of Romans in The Mystery of Romans, Nanos now turns his attention to the Letter to the Galatians. A primary voice in reclaiming Paul in his Jewish context, Nanos challenges the previously dominant views of Paul as rejecting his Jewish heritage and the Law. Where Paul's rhetoric has been interpreted to be its most anti-Jewish, Nanos instead demonstrates the implications of an intra-Jewish reading. He explores the issues of purity; insiders/outsiders; the character of "the gospel"; the relationship between groups of Christ-followers in Jerusalem, Antioch, and Galatia; and evil-eye accusations."

The Irony of Galatians: Paul's Letter in First-Century Context: Mark D. Nanos: Amazon.com: Books

My husband read this one and said it was a very good, but not easy, read and definitely changed his perspective. I don't know Nanos' background , though. I am familiar with his arguments, but I kind of wanted to hear it from a Jewish perspective. From what I read of the reviews of the Maccoby book, it presents a very possible hypothesis. I wonder which one is more plausible?
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Old 07-09-2013, 03:57 PM
 
3,964 posts, read 3,349,384 times
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Originally Posted by pegotty View Post
I'll put it on my list. Thanks for the recommendation. Have you also read The Irony of Galatians by Mark Nanos? He won the National Jewish Book Award for Jewish/Christian relations for a different book. Here is the description from Amazon:

"After taking on traditional interpretations of Romans in The Mystery of Romans, Nanos now turns his attention to the Letter to the Galatians. A primary voice in reclaiming Paul in his Jewish context, Nanos challenges the previously dominant views of Paul as rejecting his Jewish heritage and the Law. Where Paul's rhetoric has been interpreted to be its most anti-Jewish, Nanos instead demonstrates the implications of an intra-Jewish reading. He explores the issues of purity; insiders/outsiders; the character of "the gospel"; the relationship between groups of Christ-followers in Jerusalem, Antioch, and Galatia; and evil-eye accusations."

The Irony of Galatians: Paul's Letter in First-Century Context: Mark D. Nanos: Amazon.com: Books

My husband read this one and said it was a very good, but not easy, read and definitely changed his perspective. I don't know Nanos' background , though. I am familiar with his arguments, but I kind of wanted to hear it from a Jewish perspective. From what I read of the reviews of the Maccoby book, it presents a very possible hypothesis. I wonder which one is more plausible?
I'm guessing Nanos is a non-Jew? I suppose what made Maccoby's book so easy to read, is that it takes ideas that only Jews properly understand, and uses those ideas to show how improbable it was that Paul was a Jew, and how entirely impossible it was that he studied "at the foot of Rabben Gamliel." If Paul lied about this critical "fact," what else did he lie about in order to further his own personal agenda? If one strips away the Pauline dogma and views the facts that sit underneath those lies, the picture becomes much clearer of Paul inventing the religion from his Hellenistic and Gnostic roots, and then he brilliantly finds a way to connect those beliefs to an already established and respected system of beliefs - Judaism - which in Paul's lifetime was at a peak hardly seen before or since.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:24 PM
 
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If one is to look at the NT from a Jewish perspective and to attempt to see what these documents say,
The Jewish perspective is that it's assur to look at the NT.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
The Jewish perspective is that it's assur to look at the NT.
Not for anti-missionary purposes it isn't. But not to worry - if one reads works like Maccoby's, one never need open a Chrstian bible. Maccoby assembles all the needed passages, and I'm not aware he's ever been accused of taking things out of context, which is clearly unusual when considering authors writing commentary on the NT.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:28 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
The Jewish perspective is that it's assur to look at the NT.
Extrapolating on the meaning of "assur" but if the documents that comprise the NT are in fact Jewish (written by Jews), why on earth would it be wrong to look at them? Judaism doesn't allow us to entertain ideas by Jews who disagree with us? This doesn't sound right...?

I didn't know this before (I checked his webpage), but Nanos is Jewish, and has his religion listed as Reform Judaism. He has a B.A. in Judaic studies and PhD...doesn't say in what. I think one of his earlier books about Paul (The Mystery of Romans) was his doctoral dissertation.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pegotty View Post
Extrapolating on the meaning of "assur" but if the documents that comprise the NT are in fact Jewish (written by Jews), why on earth would it be wrong to look at them? Judaism doesn't allow us to entertain ideas by Jews who disagree with us? This doesn't sound right...?
The writers of the gospels had strayed so far from Judaism, I don't think it's fair to call them Jews. John, for instance, appears to be an outright anti-Semite. Perhaps Matthew as well. But even so, it's clear the writers of the Talmud (specifically the Gamara) were aware of and had read the NT. But you must remember, these writers of the Talmud were GIANTS of Torah. In today's times, Jews are mostly very weak in their Torah Judaism, and the Rabbonim of today mostly poskin that Jews should avoid those documents - as they are terrible and have contributed to the death of millions of Jews and continue to contribute to the death of Jewish souls thru organizations like Jews for Yushke. It's better to avoid the NT entirely. They bring nothing but death and misery to the Jew.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:54 PM
 
864 posts, read 734,487 times
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Extrapolating on the meaning of "assur" but if the documents that comprise the NT are in fact Jewish (written by Jews), why on earth would it be wrong to look at them? Judaism doesn't allow us to entertain ideas by Jews who disagree with us? This doesn't sound right...?
Reading books of idolatry is assur.

Quote:
Judaism doesn't allow us to entertain ideas by Jews who disagree with us? This doesn't sound right...?
Judaism doesn't allow us to entertain ideas by Jews who disagree with JUDAISM.
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