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Old 07-17-2013, 08:23 PM
 
864 posts, read 735,236 times
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Has it gotten any better in recent history, or has it gotten worse?
The exile is always bad in one way or another. Interestingly enough, the survivors of the holocaust enjoyed a respite of sorts after the war.

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Was the Holocaust just one more unfortunate event in Jewish history, or was it some kind of "defining moment" that shows that your god is going to finally straighten things out? Maybe he (or she) got tired of waiting for the Jews to obey all of the mitzvos and decided to shake things up.
Your G-d as opposed to your god who is.... There is only one G-d. The holocaust was a defining moment because it reversed the tide of assimilation.
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:02 AM
 
3,968 posts, read 3,353,135 times
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Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post

It looks like you believe that Jews have been suffering for a long time because some Jews refuse to follow the mitzvos.

We Jews say a prayer twice daily called "shema." Pretty much all Jews say shema, whether they are Torah Observant or not. There are three main paragraphs in the prayer, and the first section declares the "one-ness of hashem." I think all Jews are good with that concept. To not be good with that concept by definition makes one not Jewish. The first paragraph goes on to ask us to focus on our relationship with hashem and the mitzvos. Now we're getting on dicier ground with many of my fellow co-religionists. But here's the kicker:

The second paragraph of shema declares that the relationship we have with Hashem is like that of a parent and a child, and it's predicated on reward and punishment (i.e., actions and consequences). The Talmud tells us that to just say the words of shema without intensely focusing on the meaning of the words renders the prayer worthless.

And yet in my experience (and had most of our non-observant Jewish posters not abandoned this forum when we turned the heat up a bit and asked them to turn the mirror on themselves), the vast number of non-Torah-observant Jews will tell you that the tragedies that have befallen the Jewish people have nothing to do with our observance of the mitzvos. And furthermore, they'll tell you that hashem does not punish us. That the holocaust had nothing to do with G-d. And so on...

And yet the shema prayer is the fundamental prayer of the Jewish people. How can one say the words and yet feel entirely opposed to what they mean? I don't get it?
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Was the Holocaust just one more unfortunate event in Jewish history, or was it some kind of "defining moment" that shows that your god is going to finally straighten things out? Maybe he (or she) got tired of waiting for the Jews to obey all of the mitzvos and decided to shake things up.
Not sure if it was a defining moment or not. Certainly there has never been a time where more Jews - of all types - died at the hands of our enemies. What's important to remember, is that this churban destroyed Jews, both Observant and non-observant. So both groups need to take culpability for our responsibility bringing this on to ourselves.

The "tikkun" (reparation) for this terrible event in our history is to focus on not only performing the mitzvos, but also deeply understanding why we should do so. It's not enough to do the mitzvos. One must internalize why we do them. To not do them at all, of course, is a non-starter. And worse, to mis-define the tikkun as meaning strengthening the world (the other nations of the world) through acts of kindness to non-Jews, etc, is to refuse to look at one's own culpability in what ails the Jewish nation.
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,122,407 times
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Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
Your G-d as opposed to your god who is....
I'm an Atheist.

For some reason, I am interested in what Theists believe and that is why I participate in these forums.
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:01 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,122,407 times
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Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
And yet in my experience (and had most of our non-observant Jewish posters not abandoned this forum when we turned the heat up a bit and asked them to turn the mirror on themselves), the vast number of non-Torah-observant Jews will tell you that the tragedies that have befallen the Jewish people have nothing to do with our observance of the mitzvos. And furthermore, they'll tell you that hashem does not punish us. That the holocaust had nothing to do with G-d. And so on...
You know, this sounds like what seems to be happening in Christianity. When he was young, Billy Graham would preach about hell-fire and damnation and tell people god would punish them for their misdeeds.

When he got older, he would tell people that god wanted to forgive their sins instead of punish them. I guess that was the message that people wanted to hear.


Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
And yet the shema prayer is the fundamental prayer of the Jewish people. How can one say the words and yet feel entirely opposed to what they mean? I don't get it?
Maybe this has always been a problem. In the Sermon of the Mount, Jesus warned against just repeating a prayer without knowing what it means.
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:52 PM
 
864 posts, read 735,236 times
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For some reason, I am interested in what Theists believe and that is why I participate in these forums.
Fair enough, although you have mentioned in another forum that this forum creeps you out, or at least some of the postings. So why participate?

Please stop talking about Christian teachings and Jesus in here.
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Old 07-19-2013, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,122,407 times
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Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
Please stop talking about Christian teachings and Jesus in here.
I think it is perfectly OK to discuss how Jewish ideas and experiences compare to the experiences of other groups.
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:32 AM
 
3,968 posts, read 3,353,135 times
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Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
I think it is perfectly OK to discuss how Jewish ideas and experiences compare to the experiences of other groups.
Agreed. However, this forum is not a comparative religion forum. Jews benefit zero by understanding Chrstianity, or at least not until they understand their own religion first. And in case you haven't noticed, many Jews have no idea what normative Jewish belief is. Chrstianity and secular belief is nothing but dangerous to these fellow Jews of mine.
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:43 AM
 
864 posts, read 735,236 times
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I think it is perfectly OK to discuss how Jewish ideas and experiences compare to the experiences of other groups.
From a Jewish perspective, it is not okay. Human experiences maybe--if you'd be discussing Jewish dating v. Islamic dating, for instance. But ideas noway, nohow--since the ideas of "other groups" are either idolatry or heresy.
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:49 AM
 
2,391 posts, read 4,056,323 times
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Apparently, this is a "hot topic" now. I know you all will disagree & give hell to me, but this guy "hiker" has every right to be here and ask and say what he wants~! I feel and always have, that we should get along with each other no matter what religion, faith and ethnicity. And having other things in common like a movie you saw or talking about the new store in town, etc can lead to knowing a person in another way than faith~!!!
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