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Old 08-09-2013, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
2,538 posts, read 4,694,636 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post
And this, in short, is what is wrong with modern Judaism. It is racist. And without any basis in the Hebrew Bible.
Racist???? I have a friend whose great grandmother was Italian. he is eligible for Italian citizenship because of that and they are considering moving to Italy. They will only allow this because he is Italian by blood. Are the Italians racist?

Jews are the only nationality that come in all different colors. And they will allow anyone who is serious about conversion to convert. Please, please help me to understand why you would say such a horrible thing.
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Not one Jew in this forum, or in the world for that matter, is going to accept any J for J as a member of k'lal yisroel. They are outcasts for a reason. It appears many of the Chrstians feel the same way, but that's their business.
This may not be the place for it, but I find this idea odd. I know my experiences are not universal, but when I was a Christian, I never heard of Christians disavowing Jews for Jesus and other "Messianic" ministries. We understood that this was a way to infiltrate Jewish culture and turn it toward Christianity, in the same way missionaries across the globe looked for indigenous customs or beliefs that could be used to relate the gospel to a particular culture. It is absolutely an attempt to undermine and "Christianize" a specific culture, and the Jews are just one of countless groups that Christianity as a whole has done this to.

I guess I can see if you are somewhere in between, a non-trinitarian, culturally Jewish Christian or something like that, both Jew and Christians would generally consider you a heretic, but that is not the doctrinal view of the Jews for Jesus organization. It is doctrinally basically generic Protestant with Jewish cultural trappings.

Some of my confusion might be cleared up if JfJ could explain what makes him not a Christian, and how his beliefs differ from normative Christianity. So far all he has brought up is that he is not baptised, which is not required for salvation in most Protestant doctrine.

-NoCapo
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:14 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
195 posts, read 212,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pegotty View Post
Racist???? I have a friend whose great grandmother was Italian. he is eligible for Italian citizenship because of that and they are considering moving to Italy. They will only allow this because he is Italian by blood. Are the Italians racist?
Yes

Quote:
Jews are the only nationality that come in all different colors. And they will allow anyone who is serious about conversion to convert. Please, please help me to understand why you would say such a horrible thing.
This isn't a great subject to discuss just before Shabbat. So instead, I think I will post a "Judaism is racist" thread after Shabbat and then we can discuss this in detail.
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
We don't stone people since the destruction of the Beis Hamigdosh and the absolution of the Sanhedrin. That's why we don't stone people who violate Shabbos today.

Nothing happens randomly. Hashem controls all and every action that comes into our lives. I've been wondering the last week why we in this forum have "merited" to have a J for J come into our lives. I kept wondering what have we done wrong? It occurred to me this morning. We've done nothing wrong. Perhaps this person was brought into this forum by Hashem to clearly show Pegotty, who is struggling with her Yiddishkite and considering belief in Yushke, what happens when a Jew leaves their heritage and joins a Chrstian heritage.

Not one Jew in this forum, or in the world for that matter, is going to accept any J for J as a member of k'lal yisroel. They are outcasts for a reason. It appears many of the Chrstians feel the same way, but that's their business.

I hope our esteemed J for J poster will continue to tell us all about his ways and beliefs. I believe with perfect faith that a stable Jew is impervious to all Jesus belief. And for a weakly educated Jew, truth always reigns supreme.

Maybe this is true. But also there is another side. We lived in another state last year and just before we left I decided I wanted to have my clothes Shatnez tested. the closest place was about an hour away and we were packing to move...it was very difficult to make the time that day (it had to be that day for me to get my clothes back before the move). I had talked with a Rabbi on the phone and he encouraged me to try even with the limited time, saying that when we want to take on another mitzvah sometimes the evil one will put a stumbling block in our way. I wonder about this. It still seems to me that the Jesus thing has just been very misunderstood by the Chrstians and they have possibly co-opted something that was for the jews and created a memory of a messiah that is unrecognizable to us.
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:43 PM
 
3,964 posts, read 3,346,864 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pegotty View Post
Maybe this is true. But also there is another side. We lived in another state last year and just before we left I decided I wanted to have my clothes Shatnez tested. the closest place was about an hour away and we were packing to move...it was very difficult to make the time that day (it had to be that day for me to get my clothes back before the move). I had talked with a Rabbi on the phone and he encouraged me to try even with the limited time, saying that when we want to take on another mitzvah sometimes the evil one will put a stumbling block in our way. I wonder about this. It still seems to me that the Jesus thing has just been very misunderstood by the Chrstians and they have possibly co-opted something that was for the jews and created a memory of a messiah that is unrecognizable to us.
Mazel tov for taking on the miztva of shatnez. That can be a tough one for many Jews as they become more observant.

And yes, Jesus belonged originally to the Jews. He was one of many failed messiahs during that time period (the Romans were kicking our butts, so we often stretched trying to find a messiah). Then Jesus died, and the vast majority of Jews said, "well, that's that. No messiah." A few Jews persisted that he would come back, and they became the Ebionites, who were later persecuted by the Romans and eliminated from the Earth. Chrstianity later came to co-opt our Jewish failed messiah, adding a fair amount of Gnosticism, paganism and Hellenism, and boom! You got Chrstianity. But there is no connection with modern Chrstianity and Judaism.
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Old 08-10-2013, 01:37 AM
 
546 posts, read 567,226 times
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I'd say the majority of Jews believe in evolution. No evidence we came from fish. That's just stretching it.
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Old 08-10-2013, 05:08 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Mazel tov for taking on the miztva of shatnez. That can be a tough one for many Jews as they become more observant.

And yes, Jesus belonged originally to the Jews. He was one of many failed messiahs during that time period (the Romans were kicking our butts, so we often stretched trying to find a messiah). Then Jesus died, and the vast majority of Jews said, "well, that's that. No messiah." A few Jews persisted that he would come back, and they became the Ebionites, who were later persecuted by the Romans and eliminated from the Earth. Chrstianity later came to co-opt our Jewish failed messiah, adding a fair amount of Gnosticism, paganism and Hellenism, and boom! You got Chrstianity. But there is no connection with modern Chrstianity and Judaism.

I don't see it...Especially when I read what Yeshua said, "I was not sent but unto the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel"...
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Old 08-10-2013, 05:43 AM
 
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Even if we could trust what we read in the gospels, that sounds like the sort of thing that a Messiah would say, concerned solely with reconciling Jews (Israelites) and God in a renewed covenant (the breaking of the old one through embracing foreign ways, rulers and alliances, instead of staying true to God, was the reason why Judea and Galilee (former site of the house of Israel (1) was under gentile rule, and the Herodians were Edomites (2), for all they tried to be Jewish.

However, the point of this tale - found only in Mark and Matthew -(a Phoenecian gentile persuaded an initially reluctant Jesus to heal her daughter, because of her 'great faith') is to provide an analogy of Paul's argument that the greater faith (in Jesus) of the gentiles is the reason why they are more deserving of being saved (according to Christian thinking) than the Jews.

(1) I think that's right - flipflop will correct me if needful

(2) that's Edom -ites

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-10-2013 at 05:58 AM..
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Old 08-10-2013, 07:21 AM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,116,499 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
And yes, Jesus belonged originally to the Jews. He was one of many failed messiahs during that time period (the Romans were kicking our butts, so we often stretched trying to find a messiah). Then Jesus died, and the vast majority of Jews said, "well, that's that. No messiah." A few Jews persisted that he would come back, and they became the Ebionites, who were later persecuted by the Romans and eliminated from the Earth. Chrstianity later came to co-opt our Jewish failed messiah, adding a fair amount of Gnosticism, paganism and Hellenism, and boom! You got Chrstianity.
I am by no means a religious scholar, but I think you are exactly right.

As Rome became more powerful and took over the Greek gods, maybe the Greeks thought their gods had deserted them and they were more willing to accept a new religion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
But there is no connection with modern Chrstianity and Judaism.
Based on what I know about these two religions, I totally agee with you.
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Old 08-10-2013, 07:57 AM
 
Location: US
27,992 posts, read 15,074,605 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Even if we could trust what we read in the gospels, that sounds like the sort of thing that a Messiah would say, concerned solely with reconciling Jews (Israelites) and God in a renewed covenant (the breaking of the old one through embracing foreign ways, rulers and alliances, instead of staying true to God, was the reason why Judea and Galilee (former site of the house of Israel (1) was under gentile rule, and the Herodians were Edomites (2), for all they tried to be Jewish.

However, the point of this tale - found only in Mark and Matthew -(a Phoenecian gentile persuaded an initially reluctant Jesus to heal her daughter, because of her 'great faith') is to provide an analogy of Paul's argument that the greater faith (in Jesus) of the gentiles is the reason why they are more deserving of being saved (according to Christian thinking) than the Jews.

(1) I think that's right - flipflop will correct me if needful

(2) that's Edom -ites

It is interesting that most christians state that Paul was an Apostle unto the Gentiles, however, Peter states that the Ruach HaKodesh apointed the nations (ie, Gentiles) should hear the Gospel from his mouth...So, if this is true then how could Paul be an Apostle to the Gentiles?...And I am curious why he and Barnabas split...I read some works alleged to be of Barnabas and they seem very different from the works of Paul...

Also the fact that Yeshua sent 70 disciples out to ONLY the Jews (house of Israel) and instructed them to steer clear of the Gentiles....And the factthat the early church was majority Jews...And I read ancient texts that stated that the Gentiles would attend Synagogue in order to learn about HaShem and HIS Ways....

Last edited by Richard1965; 08-10-2013 at 08:06 AM..
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