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Old 08-16-2013, 05:05 AM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,120,485 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Just Google the word Hashkalah.
OK, I looked at a few websites and listened to some of Rabbi Wein's videos on the subject. Very, very interesting.

From what I can tell, it was a movement to break away from orthodox and traditional Judaism and, so to speak, enter the modern world. It eventually led to what we know as Reform Judaism.

I can see how some Orthodox Jews would think this was bad. On the other hand, it enabled Jews to keep their own beliefs and customs while fully participating, and prospering, in the societies in which they lived.

I guess most of my Jewish friends at our Country Club fall into this category, and they seem quite happy and satisfied with their lives. Based on that, I would say the Hashkalah movement benefitted a lot of people.

Maybe some of our Orthodox posters can describe the harm this movement has caused.

 
Old 08-16-2013, 08:14 AM
 
864 posts, read 734,724 times
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Quote:
Maybe some of our Orthodox posters can describe the harm this movement has caused.
Mass assimilation. Many of our Jewish brethren have been lost forever.

Orthodox Jews can also participate in the societies they live in, if said societies allow them to.
 
Old 08-16-2013, 08:21 AM
 
3,968 posts, read 3,350,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
Mass assimilation. Many of our Jewish brethren have been lost forever.
Took the words right out of my mouth. I suspect a significant number of those "happy Jews" you see at the country club are not even Jewish, as defined by the Torah. This concept did not exist before the Hashkalah. There's almost no way to calculate how destructive this movement has been to the Jewish people.

Recently, one of our posters here in this forum posted a link from a Reform Rabbi who wrote an entire article on why keeping kosher (one of the three basic tenets of Judaism) is no longer required, and furthermore, he claimed there is no support in the Torah for keeping Kosher. Before the Hashkala, he would have been universally labeled a heretic, and his "message" would have been ignored. Now that we are "so enlightened", the majority of Jews do not even have the education or sensitivity to understand why a "rabbi" leading his entire flock down a road to spiritual excision from their own people is so destructive.
 
Old 08-16-2013, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,120,485 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
Many of our Jewish brethren have been lost forever.
Don't you think that is a little harsh? I doubt you claim to know exactly how your god thinks and how he will treat those Jews you think are lost.

If there had been no Hashkalah movement, and therefore no Reform Judaism, maybe a lot of Jews would have left the faith entirely because they did not want to follow so many rules.

Do some of the children of Reform Jews naturally want more structure in their lives and find it by becoming Conservative or even Orthodox? If so, then it shows the main tenants of Judaism have been passed on pretty well by Reform families, which I think is admirable.
 
Old 08-16-2013, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,380 posts, read 24,164,875 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
now that we are "so enlightened", the majority of jews do not even have the education or sensitivity to understand why a "rabbi" leading his entire flock down a road to spiritual excision from their own people is so destructive.
You are not our voice! Speak only for yourself!!!
 
Old 08-16-2013, 12:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
You are not our voice! Speak only for yourself!!!
Let's see:

1. Wash negla vaser after arising in the morning: check
2. Daven Sharacharis with tefillin: check
3. Claim that my voice is the voice of all Jewery: hmm, I better hold off on that one

Hiker: so far, I don't believe we've found anyone courageous enough to defend "Jewish enlightenment" yet. Maybe somebody will pipe in their support shortly.
 
Old 08-16-2013, 12:56 PM
 
3,968 posts, read 3,350,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post

If there had been no Hashkalah movement, and therefore no Reform Judaism, maybe a lot of Jews would have left the faith entirely because they did not want to follow so many rules.
Hiker, I'm glad you're smart enough to appreciate some good irony. Actually, the opposite is true.

Before the enlightenment, perhaps one in 10,000 Jews "left the fold" and became a goy or a heretic. But since the creation of the reform movement, you can walk into any reform shul and find perhaps 30-50% of the people in the building are not even Jewish. That's not to mention the 50% or so Jews who do not attend any shul ever. And that does not include the fact that 7 out of 10 Jewish children who attend public school will intermarry, and half of those (the children of non Jewish women) will have non Jewish children.

So yeah, I'd the Hashkala is working out just fine for us Yidden.
 
Old 08-16-2013, 01:33 PM
 
864 posts, read 734,724 times
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Quote:
If there had been no Hashkalah movement, and therefore no Reform Judaism, maybe a lot of Jews would have left the faith entirely because they did not want to follow so many rules.
There were always some who did and some still do, but the Haskalah was an official declaration of rebellion. They didn't only leave, but began to usurp the status quo by installing their Misleaders as Rabbis and teachers, wiping out entire generations of Jews forever.

The result: mass assimilation and eventually collective punishment (holocaust) for all of us where their theory of "if we don't walk, talk, and behave so differently, society will accept us as equals" was turned entirely on its head.
 
Old 08-17-2013, 07:06 AM
 
Location: US
28,014 posts, read 15,102,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
There were always some who did and some still do, but the Haskalah was an official declaration of rebellion. They didn't only leave, but began to usurp the status quo by installing their Misleaders as Rabbis and teachers, wiping out entire generations of Jews forever.

The result: mass assimilation and eventually collective punishment (holocaust) for all of us where their theory of "if we don't walk, talk, and behave so differently, society will accept us as equals" was turned entirely on its head.

That kinda sounds like the Cherokee of this country...
 
Old 08-17-2013, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,120,485 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
That kinda sounds like the Cherokee of this country...
Since I am part Cherokee, I agree with you.

In my opinion, my Cherokee brothers and sisters should be more like the Reform Jews and learn to participate and prosper in our society while still keeping alive their historic culture and religion.

Of course, that is a topic for another forum.
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