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Old 08-20-2013, 08:11 AM
 
3,962 posts, read 3,345,152 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Hypothetically in a closed Orthodox community, the court system to deal with it is taken care of per Talmudic law by the elders of that community. In reality if someone passes information outside of the community to the secular system, they get arrested and judged by the outside community. But it requires someone within the community to break the code of silence.
There are halachic requirements on how a Jew treats another Jew who has committed a crime. The Jew who becomes aware of the crime (not the one who committed it), should speak with a qualified halachic decider (a posek) to determine what is the best course of action.

Of course living in the US, we sign up for "the law of the land," so hopefully the posek will tell the Jew to go to the police. But every situation is unique, and a shaila (halachic decision from a posek) is required in each situation.

That being said, 85% of Jews in America do not ask shailas, so this barely applies to them. Of the remaining 15%, likely most of them would not ask a shaila either. So the situation the OP so eloquently described is in fact a hyper rare situation, and when I see posts like these, I immediately become suspicious that there are ulterior motives in making this public. But of course, I must be dan l'kaf z'chus, so I'll jump out of this thread and listen in for a bit...
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Old 08-20-2013, 08:20 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,371 posts, read 24,120,799 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
.... So the situation the OP so eloquently described is in fact a hyper rare situation, and when I see posts like these, I immediately become suspicious that there are ulterior motives in making this public. ...
No its not, its fairly common. Why do you consistently spread disinformation?

Quote:
Haredi and hasidic organizations tend not to report these crimes to police or cooperate with law enforcement.


http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2012/11/hospital-tries-to-help-battered-hasidic-women-678.html

Last edited by Pruzhany; 08-20-2013 at 08:38 AM..
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Old 08-20-2013, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,371 posts, read 24,120,799 times
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/11/nyregion/hasidic-man-found-guilty-of-sexual-abuse.html?_r=0
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Old 08-20-2013, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,371 posts, read 24,120,799 times
Reputation: 8869
[LEFT]
Quote:

[LEFT]However,
the Hasidic community was apparently outraged when one of their members
reported to civil authorities
that his son had been sexually molested
in a ritual bathhouse.
[/LEFT]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ed-koch/child-abuse-in-the-ultrao_b_1515683.html
[/LEFT]
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Old 08-20-2013, 08:49 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,371 posts, read 24,120,799 times
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The mindset:


[LEFT]
Quote:

[LEFT]Another
haredi paragon, one Shlomo Fuchs, recently called Doron Matalon, a female
Israeli soldier returning to her base, a "****" on a public bus in Jerusalem.
When the soldier pointed out accurately that she protects him and his way of
life, Fuchs responded by saying, "She protects me? I sit at shul from eight in
the morning till midnight and study, and she's protecting me? I protect
her."
[/LEFT]
[/LEFT]
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/menachem-rosensaft/ultra-orthodox-judaism-schism_b_1201349.html
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Old 08-20-2013, 08:51 AM
 
864 posts, read 733,948 times
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...and about the 15% (wherever you get the statistics) who call the police regardless if they went without halachic due process...

It's the worst aveirah a Jew can do and is considered as if he dragged a sefer Torah out of the Aron Kodesh, threw it to the floor and stomped on it. He has no cheilek in Olam Habah and may be killed even WITHOUT a beis din.

Too bad you don't like it. That's halacha, and if we feel our hands are tied in certain cases--too bad, that's Golus. Pray for Moshiach's arrival.

There's a famous story of the vilna gaon who was traveling down a country road when the horse began nibbling off the fields. The Vilna Gaon, sitting in the carriage, had no clue as to what the horse or chauffeur were up to, when suddenly gentile appeared out of thickets, dragged the Vilna Gaon out of his carriage and began to viciously beat him.

When the vilna Gaon repeated the story, he concluded by saying, "Had I uttered, 'what do you want from me, my driver is responsible' I would be deemed mussar and all the Torah i studied all my life would become worthless."

With that said, there are also plenty of Jews who are now in prison, blamed for crimes other people have done and/or serving longer sentences because they will not masser.

So what is a Jew to do? Follow due process--take the guy to a Beis Din or consult with a Rav. Depending on the crime, you will be guided on "if" you may report him, and "how" you may report him/her. There are cases where Rabbis have convinced the criminals themselves to turn themselves in.
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Old 08-20-2013, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,371 posts, read 24,120,799 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
...and about the 15% (wherever you get the statistics) who call the police regardless if they went without halachic due process...

It's the worst aveirah a Jew can do and is considered as if he dragged a sefer Torah out of the Aron Kodesh, threw it to the floor and stomped on it. He has no cheilek in Olam Habah and may be killed even WITHOUT a beis din.

Too bad you don't like it. That's halacha, and if we feel our hands are tied in certain cases--too bad, that's Golus. Pray for Moshiach's arrival.

There's a famous story of the vilna gaon who was traveling down a country road when the horse began nibbling off the fields. The Vilna Gaon, sitting in the carriage, had no clue as to what the horse or chauffeur were up to, when suddenly gentile appeared out of thickets, dragged the Vilna Gaon out of his carriage and began to viciously beat him.

When the vilna Gaon repeated the story, he concluded by saying, "Had I uttered, 'what do you want from me, my driver is responsible' I would be deemed mussar and all the Torah i studied all my life would become worthless."

With that said, there are also plenty of Jews who are now in prison, blamed for crimes other people have done and/or serving longer sentences because they will not masser.

So what is a Jew to do? Follow due process--take the guy to a Beis Din or consult with a Rav. Depending on the crime, you will be guided on "if" you may report him, and "how" you may report him/her. There are cases where Rabbis have convinced the criminals themselves to turn themselves in.
Please simplify this gibberish so the general C-D community can understand what you're saying.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:02 AM
 
3,962 posts, read 3,345,152 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
No its not, its fairly common. Why do you consistently spread disinformation?
Sorry, it's not hyper rare. It's unbelievably rare. The links you provided by your hate website do not prove this is a common occurrence. The truth, is that crimes in the Chasidic communities are likely at similar or less frequent rates than crimes in the general population as a whole. Just look at the prisons. There are perhaps a few hundred (tops) - Chasidic frum Jews sitting in prison today. I suspect the number is likely even smaller than that - perhaps dozens. Based on that fact, one can come to only one of two conclusions:

1. Chasidic Jews simply do not commit that many crimes that earn prison time (and most of these frum Jews in prison are there for financial fraud, not crimes of violence)
2. Chasidic Jews are engaged in a massive national conspiracy to hide their crimes from the justice system

What's the theory that says when you have two possibilities, and one is reasonable and the other outrageous, that the likelihood of the outrageous theory being the truth is very unlikely?
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:05 AM
 
3,962 posts, read 3,345,152 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Please simplify this gibberish so the general C-D community can understand what you're saying.
I understood her post perfectly. I'll translate: if you (a Jew) witness a terrible crime committed by another Jew, your first obligation is to do what the Torah asks of you (ask a Rav a shaila). The Rav will guide you to the next steps...
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,371 posts, read 24,120,799 times
Reputation: 8869
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Sorry, it's not hyper rare. It's unbelievably rare....
Really. I guess I know what I'll be doing for a while today: Posting more articles on the cover-ups and threats the ULTRA Orthodox do in their communities.
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