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Old 08-20-2013, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Up above the world so high!
45,269 posts, read 88,507,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Not exactly. I would follow the Torah. And the Orthodox Rabbi's in today's time are the only people who truly have access to know what the Torah would ask of us. It's important that one pick their Rav very carefully, but it's wrong to "shaila shop" (which means if you don't like your Rav's answer, you may not just go find one who will give you the answer you do like).

If my conscience was screaming at me that my Rav has given the wrong answer, I would follow the process I outlined above whereby I would talk to my Rav's Rav, or the Beis Din, etc. But the key, is that I would do all of this within the confines of what Jewish law allows, and G-d forbid I would ever think I knew better than what the Torah tells me to do.
So....the Torah trumps your own conscience?
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:51 AM
 
3,942 posts, read 3,337,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains View Post
So....the Torah trumps your own conscience?
Correct. It's a terrible thing for a Jew to think the Torah can be replaced by our own conscience. Our conscience does not have unadulterated access to TRUTH like the Torah does. Our conscience is too heavily influenced by secular and godless culture to be fully trusted. The Torah has never changed, never been replaced and can never be trumped.
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Old 08-20-2013, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Up above the world so high!
45,269 posts, read 88,507,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Correct. It's a terrible thing for a Jew to think the Torah can be replaced by our own conscience. Our conscience does not have unadulterated access to TRUTH like the Torah does. Our conscience is too heavily influenced by secular and godless culture to be fully trusted. The Torah has never changed, never been replaced and can never be trumped.
I understand.

And what you say about "conscience" is so true.

Not to mention, people justify things to themselves all the time so as to not have their conscience bother them.

But for me, part of what God's great gift of free will is all about is the responsibility we each have to form that conscience and live by it.

My "conscience" and the consciousness by which I try to live my life answers directly to God, not man or manmade rules
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Old 08-20-2013, 12:13 PM
 
3,942 posts, read 3,337,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains View Post

My "conscience" and the consciousness by which I try to live my life answers directly to God, not man or manmade rules
Yes, but please remember that Jews believe the Torah came directly from G-d, with no human intervention. So we also live our lives the way you do - answering directly to G-d and not to and man or man-made rules. We're holding in the same place - just using different terms to describe it (twice this week I've already said that to a poster).
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,353 posts, read 24,084,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
I'll start with the Fed.

Jewish 1.773%

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
tff, I'm still waiting for your apology.
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:10 PM
 
3,942 posts, read 3,337,959 times
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Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
tff, I'm still waiting for your apology.
I asked you to find the number of Chasidic Jews in jail, not the number of Jews of all sorts, including non-Jews who self-identify as being Jewish. Your work is still undone young soldier.
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Old 08-20-2013, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,353 posts, read 24,084,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
I asked you to find the number of Chasidic Jews in jail, not the number of Jews of all sorts, including non-Jews who self-identify as being Jewish. Your work is still undone young soldier.
According to California prison statistics, the Orthodox Jewish population sits at 0.6%. Still larger than your quoted number.
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Old 08-20-2013, 03:17 PM
 
864 posts, read 733,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Of course it is purely hypothetical! That is the point. I am asking hypothetical questions to try and understand how it works. I understand how it works, (and doesn't) in Congregational forms of Christianity but I am curious how it works in Judaism, particularly the more insular Torah observant communities.

Feel free to use another example, but my question is how do you deal with conflicts of interest? Is their guidance for how to handle a problem that involves your local Rabbi? What is you have a whole chain of authority that you believe is wrong?

Again, this isn't a Jewish thing so much as an organizational thing. Is there some sort of informal Rabbinical equivalent to an Internal Affairs unit that helps to prevent a rogue leader from hiding crimes or using their spiritual authority for personal gain? I am just curious with how Judaism deals with these issues. For the most part I understand how Christianity does it, and I feel like I have a bit of an understanding of Islam from Woodrow's posts. In both those cases I think the answer is, "Not so well" so I am curious how your community deals with these issues.

-NoCapo
Unlike Christianity, there is no hierarchy in Judaism. In cases of conflicts of interest, one seeks out a disinterested party, an unrelated Rabbi knowledgeable in whatever is the subject of contention. If party A calls party B to din Torah and party B does not show up, party A may get permission to go to court. That's due process.

Our spiritual leaders aren't forced upon us. We get to choose whom we follow, listen to, and revere. If, for some reason, we think he is corrupt, we find somebody else. As for spiritual leaders hiding crimes, that's laughable. Communities are so close-knit that nothing is ever hidden.

There's no such thing as an "insular community" except in the minds of sensational journalists and anti-semites (EDIT: MOD CUT).

Jewish courts do not deal with criminal law, only civil disputes.

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 08-21-2013 at 11:17 AM.. Reason: Cut Statement that could be very offensive to some people
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,353 posts, read 24,084,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post

Jewish courts do not deal with criminal law, only civil disputes.
Then who deals with criminal law?
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Old 08-20-2013, 06:58 PM
 
2,391 posts, read 4,043,474 times
Reputation: 902
Apparently, this turned into a "hot topic"
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