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Old 08-20-2013, 07:02 PM
 
2,391 posts, read 4,043,474 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains View Post
Great, now we are getting somewhere!

Though the OP's question as asked still makes no sense I can better understand where she was going.

So, can you or someone here speak to whether or not it is actually considered a "sin" to, or not to, report a crime?

Apparently, you don't understand us southerns You must either be from up north or perhaps in Florida
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Then who deals with criminal law?
Interesting question for an FFB.

The state and federal justice systems.
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Up above the world so high!
45,269 posts, read 88,507,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veggienut View Post
Apparently, you don't understand us southerns You must either be from up north or perhaps in Florida
Nope, I'm from the very deep south myself.

Not trying to nitpick, but do you not see the problem with the way you worded your first post?
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:22 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,353 posts, read 24,084,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
Interesting question for an FFB.

The state and federal justice systems.
You couldn't be a mensch and answer like one. But this in turn finally answers the OPs question in #1 as it was related to a criminal action. Took you long enough.
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains View Post
Nope, I'm from the very deep south myself.

Not trying to nitpick, but do you not see the problem with the way you worded your first post?
I just reread it and out loud. Sounds good to me, like I was making a conversation with someone.
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:46 PM
 
Location: Up above the world so high!
45,269 posts, read 88,507,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veggienut View Post
I just reread it and out loud. Sounds good to me, like I was making a conversation with someone.
okay, not meaning to turn this into an English lesson, lol, but I'm going to give this one more shot so you won't think I'm crazy

You want someone to be turned in when they commit a crime, right?

You said, "If someone is guilty, they should suffer the consequences."

So your question should have read, "why is it a sin for someone to turn them in?"

Instead of the way you did say it, "why is it a sin for someone not to turn them in?"



Get it?
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Old 08-21-2013, 09:09 AM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,249,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
Interesting question for an FFB.

The state and federal justice systems.

Yeah, I am afraid I am confused here as well. Flipflop's original response made is sound like if a Jew has information about a fellow Jew committing a crime of any sort, he or she MUST consult a Rabbi before any cooperation with law enforcement. If the Rabbi directs him or her not to press charges, or to testify they are morally and spiritually bound to obey the Rabbi's directive, to the point that a Jew who does not do this deserves to be killed! He did mention that there are option to "appeal" a religious ruling, but ultimately no cooperation with law enforcement is allowed until there is a clear religious ruling.

You seem to be saying that this does not hold true for criminal matter, only for civil issues. Or are you arguing that Flipflop's description above is correct, but that there is no potential for abuse because Rabbi's cannot make bad choices? Granted, I am not religious, but from a secular perspective there seem to be no reason why Rabbis are any more morally infallible than, say, Catholic priests or Muslim imams. Most of us can agree that in those religions there are clearly a few bad apples, while recognizing that the majority are upright, honest men.

What I am trying to understand is how the portion of the Jewish community that holds these beliefs handles the potential for abuse. Flipflop gave a pretty good description of how he sees it. I would be interested in your take as well.

Part of the reason this is so interesting, and quite frankly uncomfortable, for some of us non-Jews is that it looks a lot like the mafia idea of omerta. No snitching, no cooperating with authorities, no interference within "the family", as it were. I understand that it is not necessarily sinister, but just like a lot of nice ideas in Christianity were twisted to be used against the Jews, it seems to provide a hook, a prearranged lever that can be used to exert control. It may be a cultural thing, but I get very uncomfortable with that sort of thing, no matter where it is found. That is part of why I am trying to understand how it works, how you view it, and what your understanding it. I have found that often if I ask questions, I find that my initial understanding is not accurate (much like the popular understanding of the Islamic idea of taqiyya).

-NoCapo
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Old 08-21-2013, 09:29 AM
 
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NoCapo, before Iwish replies to your question, let me make one thing clear. Should a terrible crime be committed among two Jews (say an adult harming a child), no matter what, the end result MUST be that the adult is held accountable in the US court system. Yes, there is a process a Jew must follow, involving their own Rav and the community on how to best handle, but no Jewish "perp's" get to get away with a crime without being held accountable, both in this world and the world to come. Ultimately, the outside world must be brought in when a crime is committed. It's not easy, but it's necessary. The Rav can be helpful on the process of turning the person over to the authorities.

And unlike another popular religion I'm somewhat familiar with, the Jew cannot just profess his love for G-d (or his imaginary son-god) or some similar process and be forgiven. The only way a Jew is forgiven is through his actions (not through his faith).
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:11 AM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,249,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
NoCapo, before Iwish replies to your question, let me make one thing clear. Should a terrible crime be committed among two Jews (say an adult harming a child), no matter what, the end result MUST be that the adult is held accountable in the US court system. Yes, there is a process a Jew must follow, involving their own Rav and the community on how to best handle, but no Jewish "perp's" get to get away with a crime without being held accountable, both in this world and the world to come. Ultimately, the outside world must be brought in when a crime is committed. It's not easy, but it's necessary. The Rav can be helpful on the process of turning the person over to the authorities.
I can understand, particularly in civil disputes, why a religious authority would be consulted to try to mediate and maintain the health of the larger community, as well as the spiritual well being of those involved. Litigation and infighting is brutal to a community, and many religions or other groups have dispute resolution mechanisms.

Even if they are isolated incidents, Pruzhany has posted several incidents involving things like child molestation where the perpetrator was caught despite their Jewish community and not with its assistance. It appears that in some isolated cases the internal system is not robust enough to deal with leaders who prefer good PR over removing an abuser from positions of authority. This is the same issue the Catholic church faced, and it doesn't appear that the Jewish system is any more robust.

The other aspect I am interested in if how these rules apply if only one party is Jewish. Are Jews only prohibited in giving testimony against their fellow Jew or should they refrain from any interaction with the authorities without consultation with a Rabbi?

I want to reiterate that these issues are not unique to Judaism. Quite a few groups with dramatic cultural difference like the Amish or the Muslims in Dearborn, MI have similar issues. Groups like the Catholic Church, with its hierarchical structure deal with the same problems. I am just interested in the ways that Jews in particular have developed through their Rabbinic tradition to deal with these problems.


Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
And unlike another popular religion I'm somewhat familiar with, the Jew cannot just profess his love for G-d (or his imaginary son-god) or some similar process and be forgiven. The only way a Jew is forgiven is through his actions (not through his faith).



-NoCapo
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Old 08-24-2013, 06:58 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,353 posts, read 24,084,481 times
Reputation: 8864
Quote:

An ultra-Orthodox Jewish man admitted in court to trying to get the rape
victim of Nechemya Weberman to leave the United States, according to court
proceedings in New York.
Ultra-Orthodox Jewish man admits to trying to ship Weberman’s rape victim out of the U.S.
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