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Old 08-23-2013, 09:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pegotty View Post
I just want to say that I love this whole perspective.
Nothing wrong with that perspective. The critical item, however, is that if a Jew attempts to lead other Jews into abrogating any of the 613 mitzvos by declaring any of them outdated, then that Jew is a rasha (evil person) and must be shunned.

However, if a Jew admits that all 613 mitzvos are required for a Jew to observe, and truthfully we're all at different madregas (levels) and some observe some better than others, than there's no problem with that. The problem comes when a Jew declares any of the 613 invalid or unnecessary.

 
Old 08-23-2013, 09:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Nothing wrong with that perspective. The critical item, however, is that if a Jew attempts to lead other Jews into abrogating any of the 613 mitzvos by declaring any of them outdated, then that Jew is a rasha (evil person) and must be shunned.

However, if a Jew admits that all 613 mitzvos are required for a Jew to observe, and truthfully we're all at different madregas (levels) and some observe some better than others, than there's no problem with that. The problem comes when a Jew declares any of the 613 invalid or unnecessary.
Also, if one does not agree with my statement above, they must immediately cease to recite shema, as the very foundation of shema, Chazal tell us, is that we are accepting the obligation to observe all 613 mitzvos.
 
Old 08-23-2013, 10:11 AM
 
Location: OC/LA
3,831 posts, read 3,697,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post

Jewish movents who follow only the written Torah to the exclusion of the Talmud end up perishing from the earth in a few generations. If you've ever heard of the Sadduccees and Karaites, these are two examples. Neither exists today.
Actually karaite Jews still exist.
 
Old 08-23-2013, 10:19 AM
 
864 posts, read 733,274 times
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Quote:
Actually karaite Jews still exist.
They are not considered Jews and must convert if they decide to join the larger Jewish population.
 
Old 08-23-2013, 10:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
The critical item, however, is that if a Jew attempts to lead other Jews into abrogating any of the 613 mitzvos by declaring any of them outdated, then that Jew is a rasha (evil person) and must be shunned.
After more thought, there's no reason to shun that Jew. They simply need to do t'shuvah (return to the Jewish people). That's why we have so many kiruv (Jewish outreach) organizations who focus on bringing Jews back to Judaism. Baruch Hashem.
 
Old 08-23-2013, 11:40 AM
 
Location: OC/LA
3,831 posts, read 3,697,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
They are not considered Jews and must convert if they decide to join the larger Jewish population.
All I was pointing out is that TFF claimed that the karaites had died out which was not true. Whether other Jews consider them normative or not has nothing to do with my post that they still exist.
 
Old 08-23-2013, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
2,538 posts, read 4,688,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Nothing wrong with that perspective. The critical item, however, is that if a Jew attempts to lead other Jews into abrogating any of the 613 mitzvos by declaring any of them outdated, then that Jew is a rasha (evil person) and must be shunned.

However, if a Jew admits that all 613 mitzvos are required for a Jew to observe, and truthfully we're all at different madregas (levels) and some observe some better than others, than there's no problem with that. The problem comes when a Jew declares any of the 613 invalid or unnecessary.
I didn't understand Pruzhany to be saying that any of the mitzvot are no longer applicable. He seemed to be talking about the application of them in a modern world, if I understand him correctly. Of course I am coming into the conversation late. it sounds like there is quite a long history with him here on C-D.
 
Old 08-23-2013, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,353 posts, read 24,079,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pegotty View Post
I didn't understand Pruzhany to be saying that any of the mitzvot are no longer applicable. He seemed to be talking about the application of them in a modern world, if I understand him correctly. Of course I am coming into the conversation late. it sounds like there is quite a long history with him here on C-D.

Your version of understanding is correct. His is a Personal Attack which is nothing new for him to do.
 
Old 08-23-2013, 12:43 PM
 
3,942 posts, read 3,337,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pegotty View Post
I didn't understand Pruzhany to be saying that any of the mitzvot are no longer applicable. He seemed to be talking about the application of them in a modern world, if I understand him correctly. Of course I am coming into the conversation late. it sounds like there is quite a long history with him here on C-D.
An example. Pruzhany agrees that a Jew may not light a fire on Shabbos. All of our sages tell us that using a computer on Shabbos (any single key stroke) is a violation of this commandment. Pruzhany, however, believes that one can indeed use key strokes on Shabbos, and chooses to ignore the halachic decisions of our gedolim (Jewish sages).

One of the 613 commandments is that Rabbinic mitzvos must be followed d'oraisa - meaning as if they are commandments given in the written Torah itself. To use one's computer on Shabbos is a violation of this mitzva.

Now if Pruzhany wants to use his computer on Shabbos, that's between he and his Maker. But if he chooses to tell other Jews to ignore their gedolim and instead follow his non-Torah paths - that's what is evil.

The issue here isn't how a Jew "interprets" the mitzvos. It's the rejection of our gedolim.
 
Old 08-23-2013, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,353 posts, read 24,079,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
An example. Pruzhany agrees that a Jew may not light a fire on Shabbos. All of our sages tell us that using a computer on Shabbos (any single key stroke) is a violation of this commandment. Pruzhany, however, believes that one can indeed use key strokes on Shabbos, and chooses to ignore the halachic decisions of our gedolim (Jewish sages).

One of the 613 commandments is that Rabbinic mitzvos must be followed d'oraisa - meaning as if they are commandments given in the written Torah itself. To use one's computer on Shabbos is a violation of this mitzva.

Now if Pruzhany wants to use his computer on Shabbos, that's between he and his Maker. But if he chooses to tell other Jews to ignore their gedolim and instead follow his non-Torah paths - that's what is evil.

The issue here isn't how a Jew "interprets" the mitzvos. It's the rejection of our gedolim.
Lets try this one last time. I TALK to my computer. I physically do not press the keys. I VERBALLY give it commands so I am not clicking anything with my mouse. Stop creating BS as I've made this exact statement time after time. Stop adding BS to make yourself sound better and more knowledgeable than everyone on this forum.
http://www.evaluesoftware.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=2283&gclid=CKfxuoqilL kCFdOj4AodHHkAiQ
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