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Old 11-05-2013, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,376 posts, read 24,142,259 times
Reputation: 8872

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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Baruch HaShem we have tens of thousands sitting and learning today. There is indeed still hope for the Jewish people. We Jews have always prayed that the goyim won't take away our freedom to learn Torah. It appears we now also need to daven that our fellow Yidden don't take away those freedoms too
There's something called Time Management. It worked for 1000's of years, so it should not be an issue now.
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Old 11-05-2013, 12:48 PM
 
Location: OC/LA
3,831 posts, read 3,706,656 times
Reputation: 2214
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
But just know that the protection the Jews enjoy in Israel has nothing to do with the fancy military equipment and has everything to do with the merit found in the study halls. We exist because of the Torah scholars, not because of weapons.
I really can't believe that anyone would say this. I hope you're in the minority among ultra orthodox. This is actually quite embarrassing/painful for me to read coming from a Jew. How can you be so disrespectful to the thousands of people that have fought and sacrificed their lives to protect Israel?


Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
And therein lies the fundamental difference between a Torah Observant Jew and a non Torah Observant Jew. I say everything comes from Hashem. You say it comes from your hard work.
This actually looks more like fundamentalist Christianity to me. I have always been taught that Judaism is a religion based on actions whereas Christianity is based on faith.

Last edited by HyperionGap; 11-05-2013 at 01:19 PM..
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Old 11-05-2013, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
2,538 posts, read 4,695,891 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
And therein lies the fundamental difference between a Torah Observant Jew and a non Torah Observant Jew. I say everything comes from Hashem. You say it comes from your hard work. I used to think like you do. So I get where you're coming from. Let's hope we never have to find out who is right and who is wrong.
I think it's somewhere in the middle. Abraham was promised land and had to fight to buy a burial plot for Sarah at a high price. He was also promised descendants. But when Sarah died he still had no grandchildren and Isaac wasn't even married. So he sent his servant on a mission to find his son a wife. Yes, Everything comes from Hashem but that doesn't mean that we don't have to hustle to make things happen. So you're both right, IMO.
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Old 11-05-2013, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
2,538 posts, read 4,695,891 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Baruch HaShem we have tens of thousands sitting and learning today. There is indeed still hope for the Jewish people. We Jews have always prayed that the goyim won't take away our freedom to learn Torah. It appears we now also need to daven that our fellow Yidden don't take away those freedoms too
This seems backwards to me. It seems to me that it's reasonable for some jews to do nothing but study based on the original temple system with the priests and Levites not farming for themselves and being supported by the tithe. But the orthodox are not just the priests and Levites. This seems to imply that just being jewish entitles you to a life of dependence on others to support you. Just not sitting well.
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Old 11-05-2013, 02:07 PM
 
Location: OC/LA
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Originally Posted by pegotty View Post
Yes, Everything comes from Hashem but that doesn't mean that we don't have to hustle to make things happen.
I think the majority of Jews would agree with that statement.
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Old 11-05-2013, 02:45 PM
 
3,964 posts, read 3,348,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pegotty View Post
This seems backwards to me. It seems to me that it's reasonable for some jews to do nothing but study based on the original temple system with the priests and Levites not farming for themselves and being supported by the tithe. But the orthodox are not just the priests and Levites. This seems to imply that just being jewish entitles you to a life of dependence on others to support you. Just not sitting well.
Yisacher and Zevulen, two of Yaakov's 12 boys. One worked, and gave over his money so the other could learn. The Torah gave us this detail because we are to learn from it. These two men were righteous. So we suddenly know better than the Torah?

Our sages tell us the world was built on three pillars:

1. learning Torah
2. Tefilla - davening to Hashem
3. Gemilus Chasadim - Acts of kindness

Notice nowhere in there does it say hard work, pulling your own weight, etc. Those are modern day concepts and are treif goyisha concepts.
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Old 11-05-2013, 02:47 PM
 
3,964 posts, read 3,348,129 times
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The money we have is not our own. We do not determine how much we earn. It is purely a test to see if we will use it to promote the the pillars in my post above.
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Old 11-05-2013, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,376 posts, read 24,142,259 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
.... Those are modern day concepts and are treif goyisha concepts.
The entire world thanks you for your Personal Attack on everyone outside of yourself.
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Old 11-05-2013, 08:17 PM
 
3,964 posts, read 3,348,129 times
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Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
The entire world thanks you for your Personal Attack on everyone outside of yourself.
I apologize I cannot see where I attacked the world. If you're a goy, then be the best goy you can be. If you are a Yid who acts like a goy, then you're simply full of potential and I'm sure Hashem wants you to return. Just because a Yid acts like a goy doesn't mean he is fated to always act that way. There is much kiruv (Torah outreach programs) in the US and eretz yisroel.
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Old 11-07-2013, 03:12 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,376 posts, read 24,142,259 times
Reputation: 8872
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Our sages tell us the world was built on three pillars:

1. learning Torah
2. Tefilla - davening to Hashem
3. Gemilus Chasadim - Acts of kindness

Notice nowhere in there does it say hard work, pulling your own weight, etc. Those are modern day concepts and are treif goyisha concepts.
You may want to read the 613 Mitzvot a few times as there are sections that cover slave ownership and farm land ownership. And I don't know of any farmer that does not work hard and get their hands dirty.
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