U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Judaism
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-07-2013, 03:25 AM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
2,538 posts, read 4,693,137 times
Reputation: 2590

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
You may want to read the 613 Mitzvot a few times as there are sections that cover slave ownership and farm land ownership. And I don't know of any farmer that does not work hard and get their hands dirty.
It seems to me that it would be understood that people are working to provide for themselves. The Bible was written before there were welfare programs to support those who choose not to work. Back then, if you didn't work and you weren't supported by the tithe, you starved. It makes sense that a Rabbi is supported by the tithe of the people he leads. But the idea that all of his people also don't work and are supported by welfare? Seriously wrong. What about all the verses in Proverbs about work ethic? It's simply common sense.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-07-2013, 03:44 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,371 posts, read 24,120,799 times
Reputation: 8869
Quote:
Originally Posted by pegotty View Post
... It makes sense that a Rabbi is supported by the tithe of the people he leads....What about all the verses in Proverbs about work ethic? It's simply common sense.
But what happened in the post WW2 era is that over 600,000 UO Jews ( in Israel) decided not to work and treat the world as their slaves so they can be enlightened by reading the same books over and over again for the rest of their lives.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-07-2013, 04:20 AM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
2,538 posts, read 4,693,137 times
Reputation: 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
But what happened in the post WW2 era is that over 600,000 UO Jews ( in Israel) decided not to work and treat the world as their slaves so they can be enlightened by reading the same books over and over again for the rest of their lives.
While I agree with so many things that you say, these kinds of phrases aren't helpful and is part of what keeps getting the threads locked. You're not the only one, I know. But when we have these discussion we need to truly care about each other.

For example, the ultra-orthodox that you are speaking of not working, they were raised to believe this is right. It is very hard to open your eyes to something that you have been taught your whole life and see that it is wrong. I'm not saying don't point these things out. I am saying do it with patience and compassion. And please don't make statements like the one above that will just put the other side on the defensive.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-07-2013, 04:40 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,371 posts, read 24,120,799 times
Reputation: 8869
Quote:
Originally Posted by pegotty View Post
For example, the ultra-orthodox that you are speaking of not working, they were raised to believe this is right. It is very hard to open your eyes to something that you have been taught your whole life and see that it is wrong. I'm not saying don't point these things out. I am saying do it with patience and compassion. And please don't make statements like the one above that will just put the other side on the defensive.
And that's why I consistently say I was Ger. I spent up to my early teens in that world.

And as per the statements, I can supply you with links that show you that it fact.

Haredim get free bus ride after Shabbat - Israel Jewish Scene, Ynetnews

Its the only day off in a week. Do you really think Israeli bus drivers want to work?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-07-2013, 05:40 AM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
2,538 posts, read 4,693,137 times
Reputation: 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
And that's why I consistently say I was Ger. I spent up to my early teens in that world.

And as per the statements, I can supply you with links that show you that it fact.

Haredim get free bus ride after Shabbat - Israel Jewish Scene, Ynetnews

Its the only day off in a week. Do you really think Israeli bus drivers want to work?
I'm not talking about whether you are right or wrong. I'm talking about sharing your perspective (and it's a very valuable one) in a way that everyone (even those who are opposed to you) can hear and respond to meaningfully.

Do you have children? I think all of us should apply the skills we teach our kids when working through our disagreements. When my children disagree with one another, I teach them to fully listen to the other person's perspective before passing judgement. You just might find that they have seen something that you didn't see and have good reason for being frustrated or upset.

I have found that in most things the real answers are somewhere in the middle. I know that might sound like a cop-out to some. But I really don't think the world is black and white. All of us, whether we're Jews or even some other religion (who's to say G-d hasn't spoken to people besides the Jews) only have a minute understanding of the character of G-d. Our understanding of life and the universe is limited. So we should be gracious to other ideas.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-07-2013, 06:00 AM
 
Location: Long Island
1,721 posts, read 1,388,876 times
Reputation: 1418
Quote:
Originally Posted by pegotty View Post
I'm not talking about whether you are right or wrong. I'm talking about sharing your perspective (and it's a very valuable one) in a way that everyone (even those who are opposed to you) can hear and respond to meaningfully.

Do you have children? I think all of us should apply the skills we teach our kids when working through our disagreements. When my children disagree with one another, I teach them to fully listen to the other person's perspective before passing judgement. You just might find that they have seen something that you didn't see and have good reason for being frustrated or upset.

I have found that in most things the real answers are somewhere in the middle. I know that might sound like a cop-out to some. But I really don't think the world is black and white. All of us, whether we're Jews or even some other religion (who's to say G-d hasn't spoken to people besides the Jews) only have a minute understanding of the character of G-d. Our understanding of life and the universe is limited. So we should be gracious to other ideas.
I wholeheartly agree.

In Judaism, we are commanded to rebuke the sinner and to help our fellow Jews act appropriately. But, at the same time, we must do so in a manner that actually promotes positive change. To publicly berate people and use harsh criticism, even if true, will often only serve to raise the defenses of the other party and does nothing to help the situation. And that becomes a sin in itself.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-07-2013, 07:18 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,371 posts, read 24,120,799 times
Reputation: 8869
Quote:
Originally Posted by pegotty View Post
Do you have children?....
Yes. And they followed in my footsteps. I was a US Marine in the early 80's and had the honor of being in Lebanon during the infamous bombing there. My boys have also been through the US Marines and both were in Iraq/Afghanistan. One is still in and the other has entered the University system. Kids will be kids, but I am honored to have these boys as my sons. Their level of religion is their choice.

Semper Fi
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-07-2013, 08:11 AM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
2,538 posts, read 4,693,137 times
Reputation: 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Yes. And they followed in my footsteps. I was a US Marine in the early 80's and had the honor of being in Lebanon during the infamous bombing there. My boys have also been through the US Marines and both were in Iraq/Afghanistan. One is still in and the other has entered the University system. Kids will be kids, but I am honored to have these boys as my sons. Their level of religion is their choice.

Semper Fi
My husband is a former Marine as well. He was in Desert Storm. Are you sharing this as an example of how you deal with conflict? Or just because you are proud your and your children's service? I'm not trying to prove anything, just asking sincerely.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-07-2013, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,371 posts, read 24,120,799 times
Reputation: 8869
Quote:
Originally Posted by pegotty View Post
My husband is a former Marine as well. He was in Desert Storm. Are you sharing this as an example of how you deal with conflict? Or just because you are proud your and your children's service? I'm not trying to prove anything, just asking sincerely.
As a former Marine, you know how we deal (or are trained) with conflict. As to my kids I'll always be proud of them. At 18 they had three choices: Get a job, Go to school or Go to the Military. Past that their lives are their own.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-07-2013, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
2,538 posts, read 4,693,137 times
Reputation: 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
As a former Marine, you know how we deal (or are trained) with conflict. As to my kids I'll always be proud of them. At 18 they had three choices: Get a job, Go to school or Go to the Military. Past that their lives are their own.
And it's a great method if you're at war. Relationships, not so good. :-)

honestly, I have a lot of respect for you. you stand up for what you believe. you are a leader. but i think we all have room to be a little slower to judge and extend the benefit of the doubt to others. i'm saying this to you because you are willing to be engaged. but it goes to all of us on this board.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Judaism
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top