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Old 12-17-2013, 10:12 PM
 
Location: OC/LA
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Had an interesting topic come up in my Judaism class this evening, so I thought I would ask it to you.


Do you believe dinosaurs existed on Earth millions of years ago?

 
Old 12-21-2013, 09:30 PM
 
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Not entirely sure if dinosaurs ever existed. My limited mind says yes, but not necessarily the way the "science" books say so. What did you learn?
 
Old 12-26-2013, 12:41 PM
 
Location: OC/LA
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So, basically the instructor told us that there are several theories among creationist Jews who believe that the world was actually only ~5,000 years ago.

One was that god simply put the fossils in the ground as a test of their faith.

Another was that there were several (I believe 8) rounds of failed "creations" on earth before god finally got it right the last time with humans. The bones are remains of the previous incarnations of the world.

Final one was that during the great flood there were crazy amounts of chemicals like sulfur or chlorine that damaged the chemical make up of the fossils and cause them to age at a faster rate.


Personally, I found this quite depressing. I was sad to learn that Jews also have been infiltrated by the creationist nutjobs just like christian fun dies. I think it's a much smaller percentage though, so that's encouraging.
 
Old 12-26-2013, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperionGap View Post
I think it's a much smaller percentage though, so that's encouraging.
Why do you think that?

From what I can tell, a Fundie is a Fundie, whether they are Muslim, Jewish, or Christian.
 
Old 12-26-2013, 01:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Personally, I found this quite depressing. I was sad to learn that Jews also have been infiltrated by the creationist nutjobs just like christian fun dies. I think it's a much smaller percentage though, so that's encouraging.
Sorry for butting in on FFB's thread, but you're depressed for the wrong reason. It's way more depressing that more Jews have been infiltrated by atheist nut jobs instead of their knowing even why their Jewishness has any relevance or meaning.

The fundamental Jewish belief is that G-d created the world in 6 days and rested on the seventh, and that creation took place 5774 years ago. G-d created a world, replete with saplings and mighty sequoias and stars in the heaven millions of light years away. In other words, He created a complete world, not one where the light switch went on.

I'd love to hear YOU explain how scientists determine a fossil's age without any point of comparison. Fore example, I can tell the age of a person just by seeing many people of said age looking the same way. I would never be ever to tell you how a five hundred year old man would look, since I've never seen one.
 
Old 12-26-2013, 01:57 PM
 
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I tend to believe another "version." That the world is indeed 5774 years old, but that count starts on the 7th day of creation, which was Shabbos and the day Hashem rested. The 6 days before that, we are unable to calculate using our current knowledge of a 24-hour day. So perhaps the first 6 days of creation took billions of years to run its course. Then on day 7, the very nature of time changed, and we count the same way we count to this day. Or possibly the flood thing and the chemical changes. Or the creating, destroying and re-creating of the world...

For me, none of this really matters. It's just a distraction to keep our minds busy when we should really be focusing on tefilla, tzedakah and tshuvah.
 
Old 12-26-2013, 02:06 PM
 
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BTW, I know there is a really long thread in the main religion forum from last year where the fundamentalist Chrstians defend a young earth. That thread is hilarious, if you can find it, because the only half reliable sources on the subject would be Jewish sources, but they have no access to those sources, so to say the least, their ideas are quite outlandish.
 
Old 12-27-2013, 01:26 AM
 
Location: OC/LA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
From what I can tell, a Fundie is a Fundie, whether they are Muslim, Jewish, or Christian.
I agree with you entirely. I personally (honestly have no evidence to back this up only observation) think this is because of the Jewish emphasis on education and questioning information. This in turns leads to less people with blinders on that believe whatever nonsense is spewed out without critically thinking about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
Sorry for butting in on FFB's thread, but you're depressed for the wrong reason. It's way more depressing that more Jews have been infiltrated by atheist nut jobs instead of their knowing even why their Jewishness has any relevance or meaning.
Actually, I'm perfectly fine with that. In fact, I'm probably what you would consider an atheist nut job considering I believe in evolution, science, and a whole slew of things you would find probably find heretical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
I'd love to hear YOU explain how scientists determine a fossil's age without any point of comparison. Fore example, I can tell the age of a person just by seeing many people of said age looking the same way. I would never be ever to tell you how a five hundred year old man would look, since I've never seen one.
The short answer is that I would examine the ratio of carbon isotopes (carbon-14 and carbon-12) in the object and make a rough estimate based on the radioactive decay observed compared to current carbon isotope ratios in living things.



Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
I tend to believe another "version." That the world is indeed 5774 years old, but that count starts on the 7th day of creation, which was Shabbos and the day Hashem rested. The 6 days before that, we are unable to calculate using our current knowledge of a 24-hour day. So perhaps the first 6 days of creation took billions of years to run its course. Then on day 7, the very nature of time changed, and we count the same way we count to this day. Or possibly the flood thing and the chemical changes. Or the creating, destroying and re-creating of the world...

For me, none of this really matters. It's just a distraction to keep our minds busy when we should really be focusing on tefilla, tzedakah and tshuvah.
Yeah I've heard this one also, but the instructor didn't bring it up. It's sort of just saying "I don't know." This version of creationism is still doesn't work because it can't explain evolution. If god created adam & eve on the sixth day, what about all the other links in the evolutionary chain like homo erectus, homo habilis, etc.

Last edited by HyperionGap; 12-27-2013 at 01:39 AM..
 
Old 12-27-2013, 05:34 AM
 
3,962 posts, read 3,342,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperionGap View Post
I agree with you entirely. I personally (honestly have no evidence to back this up only observation) think this is because of the Jewish emphasis on education and questioning information. This in turns leads to less people with blinders on that believe whatever nonsense is spewed out without critically thinking about it.



Actually, I'm perfectly fine with that. In fact, I'm probably what you would consider an atheist nut job considering I believe in evolution, science, and a whole slew of things you would find probably find heretical.


The short answer is that I would examine the ratio of carbon isotopes (carbon-14 and carbon-12) in the object and make a rough estimate based on the radioactive decay observed compared to current carbon isotope ratios in living things.




Yeah I've heard this one also, but the instructor didn't bring it up. It's sort of just saying "I don't know." This version of creationism is still doesn't work because it can't explain evolution. If god created adam & eve on the sixth day, what about all the other links in the evolutionary chain like homo erectus, homo habilis, etc.
Since you appear sincerely interested in this subject, I understand Gerard Scheoeder, a frum Jew, has some excellent writings and online talks you can find on the subject. I'm told when you read his works. It could alter your view on the subject. Even the most heretical atheist nut job. :-)
 
Old 12-28-2013, 04:53 PM
 
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Quote:
The short answer is that I would examine the ratio of carbon isotopes (carbon-14 and carbon-12) in the object and make a rough estimate based on the radioactive decay observed compared to current carbon isotope ratios in living things.
The short response is that the common man has no clue what carbon isotopes or radioactive decay look like and how it's possible to declare something billions of years old based on whatever they are purported to be, and relies on some scientist to explain it to him. The common man then nods his head as if he understands and agrees with said scientist lest he, the common man, looks stupid. The common man then declares his faith in the scientist and without understanding a word adapts this theory as theology.

Gerard Schroeder is pretty good for those who feel a need to reconcile the two. The difference between evolutionists and creationists are that evolutionists have an answer to everything, and those of use who believe in G-d having created the world in six days understand that there's much about the universe and certainly about G-d's capabilities that the human mind can never understand.

Quote:
If god created adam & eve on the sixth day, what about all the other links in the evolutionary chain like homo erectus, homo habilis, etc.
Who are these guys? How come evolution stopped and we don't see anything mid-evolution these days?

(slapping forehead is disbelief how I got suckered into a debate about evolution)
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