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Old 11-26-2014, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
939 posts, read 1,261,142 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
That is an interesting comment, Flipflop. What kind of Jew would not want a Savior to come?

I can understand how Christians are happy that their Savior has already made his presence known and they would love to see him return.

But it seems that any Jew would look forward to their Savior making an appearance, but you imply that some do not.
hiker45, your cultural Christianity is showing through. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with being a cultural Christian. There are plenty of cultural Jews who are 100% atheist but are Jewish in their understanding of religion and philosophy. But your understanding of religion and Judaism in particular is very Christian-centric.

Why would Jews need a capital-s Savior?

Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
There is nothing wrong with the Lubavich Chassidim claiming Rav Shneerson was/is moschiach. They likely were/are wrong, but its a uniquely Jewish concept to yearn for moschiach. Any Yid who does not yearn for him to finally come, those are the Yiddin who frighten me.
Actually, there is a lot wrong. Rabbi Schneerson, like Jesus, is dead and therefore can't be mashiach. Like Christians, Lubavitchers are waiting for the second coming of their messiah, necessary because neither person fulfilled the messianic prophecies. Lubavitchers claim that Schneerson is their Lord, teacher, rabbi, and messiah king forever ("yechi adoneinu, moreinu, v'rabeinu, melech hamashiach le'olam vaed"). So do Christians. Although only a minority of Lubavitchers think Schneerson is God, early Christians before Paul of Tarsus and the Gospel of John probably didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus either, and like the Lubavitchers today, probably observed halacha.

 
Old 11-26-2014, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,113,133 times
Reputation: 1399
Quote:
Originally Posted by usuario View Post
Why would Jews need a capital-s Savior?
I have no idea why Jews would need a Savior. I just thought most of them were looking for one to show up.

It seems to me that a religion that looks forward to a Savior is very different from one that does not.

In the spirit of Thanksgiving, I thought I would post a beautiful song sung by a man looking for a Savior. I don't know if he is Jewish or Christian or whatever.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ6hJNGZ8vg
 
Old 11-26-2014, 02:58 PM
 
Location: US
27,956 posts, read 15,047,299 times
Reputation: 1734
Quote:
Originally Posted by usuario View Post
hiker45, your cultural Christianity is showing through. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with being a cultural Christian. There are plenty of cultural Jews who are 100% atheist but are Jewish in their understanding of religion and philosophy. But your understanding of religion and Judaism in particular is very Christian-centric.

Why would Jews need a capital-s Savior?



Actually, there is a lot wrong. Rabbi Schneerson, like Jesus, is dead and therefore can't be mashiach. Like Christians, Lubavitchers are waiting for the second coming of their messiah, necessary because neither person fulfilled the messianic prophecies. Lubavitchers claim that Schneerson is their Lord, teacher, rabbi, and messiah king forever ("yechi adoneinu, moreinu, v'rabeinu, melech hamashiach le'olam vaed"). So do Christians. Although only a minority of Lubavitchers think Schneerson is God, early Christians before Paul of Tarsus and the Gospel of John probably didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus either, and like the Lubavitchers today, probably observed halacha.
From what I see, yea...They were seen as a Judais sect...
 
Old 11-29-2014, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Eastern Oregon.
360 posts, read 183,800 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alt Thinker View Post
I have done my best to answer the question raised in the OP and elsewhere. My posts have definitely not been "purely Christian". I thought that my posts were relevant to Judaism. My quotes were even from the TaNaKh. Oh ... and I am not a Christian, just knowledgeable about Christianity and its early history.

But if you feel I am intruding, I will not post here.

Suit yourself. I'm easy.
Jesus was a Jew and most of his followers were Jews, not gentiles. It appears that gospel writers and Paul distorted everything to make it Christian, or to turn it against Judaism. I know that sounds too simple, but history doesn't lie.

In my opinion, God (Jesus) was preaching to his chosen people. He did not intend to begin a new religion, it just got off track. What happened says a lot about freewill. God can do this or that, God can try to communicate with humans, but humans can distort God's words whichever way they want. Apparently, the life of Jesus wasn't dramatic enough, some really good Hollywood type gospel writers (Greeks) were needed to jazz it up.
 
Old 11-29-2014, 07:14 PM
 
Location: US Wilderness
1,233 posts, read 873,964 times
Reputation: 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by earl012 View Post
Jesus was a Jew and most of his followers were Jews, not gentiles. It appears that gospel writers and Paul distorted everything to make it Christian, or to turn it against Judaism. I know that sounds too simple, but history doesn't lie.

In my opinion, God (Jesus) was preaching to his chosen people. He did not intend to begin a new religion, it just got off track. What happened says a lot about freewill. God can do this or that, God can try to communicate with humans, but humans can distort God's words whichever way they want. Apparently, the life of Jesus wasn't dramatic enough, some really good Hollywood type gospel writers (Greeks) were needed to jazz it up.
IMO Jesus was a preacher who thought of himself as a prophet. His influences as I see it were: the messianic fervor of the age; Hillel, the leading voice of Judaism when Jesus was young, who emphasized the spirit of the law and not just the letter; the prophets of old esp. Isaiah and Amos who urged righteous action over adherence to ritual. I see Jesus as preaching a return to true righteousness - following the commands given by G-d as found in the scriptures - to make the people worthy of a messiah. He saw as an obstacle to that mission the Pharisees of Beth Shammai who demanded strict adherence to the many 'man made' rules as well as unreasonably strict interpretation of the 'legitimate' commands - the Decalogue and the 613 mitzvot found in scriptures. That is the picture I get from reading between the lines of the Gospels.

I have written extensively about Paul and the Gospels elsewhere and do not think it would be appropriate to go too deeply into those subjects here. Suffice it to say that I see Paul as (a) trying to address the problem of Jesus getting unexpectedly killed and (b) trying to spread the ideas of Jesus to 'the nations'. It is possible he had in mind Isaiah's 'all nations' prophecies and thought that the end of days (Book of Daniel style) could not be achieved unless Gentiles got the word as well. I see the Gospels as seeking to address the fact that the end of days that was expected to happen like maybe next Tuesday was so delayed, along with some individual agendas.

My take on it anyway.
 
Old 11-29-2014, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Eastern Oregon.
360 posts, read 183,800 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alt Thinker View Post
IMO Jesus was a preacher who thought of himself as a prophet. His influences as I see it were: the messianic fervor of the age; Hillel, the leading voice of Judaism when Jesus was young, who emphasized the spirit of the law and not just the letter; the prophets of old esp. Isaiah and Amos who urged righteous action over adherence to ritual. I see Jesus as preaching a return to true righteousness - following the commands given by G-d as found in the scriptures - to make the people worthy of a messiah. He saw as an obstacle to that mission the Pharisees of Beth Shammai who demanded strict adherence to the many 'man made' rules as well as unreasonably strict interpretation of the 'legitimate' commands - the Decalogue and the 613 mitzvot found in scriptures. That is the picture I get from reading between the lines of the Gospels.

I have written extensively about Paul and the Gospels elsewhere and do not think it would be appropriate to go too deeply into those subjects here. Suffice it to say that I see Paul as (a) trying to address the problem of Jesus getting unexpectedly killed and (b) trying to spread the ideas of Jesus to 'the nations'. It is possible he had in mind Isaiah's 'all nations' prophecies and thought that the end of days (Book of Daniel style) could not be achieved unless Gentiles got the word as well. I see the Gospels as seeking to address the fact that the end of days that was expected to happen like maybe next Tuesday was so delayed, along with some individual agendas.

My take on it anyway.
I do not have the deep understanding of the New Testament that you have. I am not a Jew and I really should not be posting on this thread. What I know is from a serious of dreams about Jesus and Paul. I don't want to post my dreams, it causes too much controversy. However, inasmuch as it relates to this thread, I'll post conclusions. Jesus was God, not the son of God. God is a duality which explains in part why NT authors made up son of God stories. Jesus was not crucified, he was beaten to death by a Roman soldier. Paul's epistles are based on false ideas about Jesus. Once you eliminate the son of God from the New Testament it falls apart. There's no salvation from Jesus sacrificing himself, it's just a tragic story about humans murdering Jesus (God).
 
Old 11-29-2014, 11:22 PM
 
Location: OC/LA
3,831 posts, read 3,699,139 times
Reputation: 2214
Quote:
Originally Posted by earl012 View Post
I do not have the deep understanding of the New Testament that you have. I am not a Jew and I really should not be posting on this thread. What I know is from a serious of dreams about Jesus and Paul. I don't want to post my dreams, it causes too much controversy. However, inasmuch as it relates to this thread, I'll post conclusions. Jesus was God, not the son of God. God is a duality which explains in part why NT authors made up son of God stories. Jesus was not crucified, he was beaten to death by a Roman soldier. Paul's epistles are based on false ideas about Jesus. Once you eliminate the son of God from the New Testament it falls apart. There's no salvation from Jesus sacrificing himself, it's just a tragic story about humans murdering Jesus (God).
I think you just killed the judaism forum.
 
Old 11-30-2014, 05:36 PM
 
Location: South-Western USA , desert
491 posts, read 372,965 times
Reputation: 634
Default How the doctrine of immortality became accepted & taught in Judaism, and what was taught before that . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by solojoh View Post
I'm interested in a Jewish perspective, not the Christian one, so let me phrase the question differently:

What might a Jew of about 2000 years ago have meant by the term "eternal life?"

Is he referring to a afterlife? What kind of afterlife? What were the differing views at the time?

Thank you,
Sonia

The idea of the immortality of the soul entered Judaism through the influence of Greek philosophy. You were vague in saying "about 2000 years ago", so I have included information about the changes that occurred in Judaism's teachings a few centuries after 2,000 years ago . . .



The Hebrew Scriptures show what the Ancient Israelites believed about death.

Certain customs have developed that reflect bthe elief that man has an immortal soul that survives death of the body and, so, is aware of what the survivors are doing, etc. . . .

However, the Bible says:


“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all . . .
Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished,
and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6)

“The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (Ezekiel 18:4)

"Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning
nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going." (Ecclesiastes 9:10)



In describing what happens to the incorrigibly wicked, it says:


"The wicked are . . . like the chaff that the wind blows away." (Psalm 1:4)



"For evil men will be done away with,
But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth.


"[The] wicked will be no more." (Psalm 37:9, 10a)



"[The] wicked will perish . . . vanish . . . vanish like smoke." (Psalm 37:20)



"[All] the transgressors will be destroyed;

The future of wicked people will be cut off." (Psalm 37:38)



With a persons' actual future cut off, there is no life to life no matter where!

(The Christian Scriptures teach the same thing at 2 Th 1:9a :

"These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction.")




However . . . One of the basic beliefs of 'modern' Judaism is that 'man has an immortal soul that survives the death of his body.'

Where do scholars say that this belief comes from, & when did the big change occur?




The Encyclopaedia Judaica tells us that . . .

“It was probably under Greek influence that the doctrine of the immortality of the soul came into Judaism.”

That same source shows that this created a doctrinal dilemma, stating:

“Basically the two beliefs of resurrection and the soul’s immortality are contradictory.
The one refers to a collective resurrection at the end of the days, i.e., that the dead sleeping in the earth will arise from the grave, while the other refers to the state of the soul after the death of the body.”

How was the dilemma resolved in Jewish theology? They changed their belief of no afterlife & a later resurrection, being based on the Bible alone . . . to preferring pagan teachings over those taught in God's Word:

“It was held that when the individual died his soul still lived on in another realm (this gave rise to all the beliefs regarding heaven and hell) while his body lay in the grave to await the physical resurrection of all the dead here on earth.”



University lecturer Arthur Hertzberg writes:

“In the [Hebrew] Bible itself the arena of man’s life is this world. There is no doctrine of heaven and hell, only a growing concept of an ultimate resurrection of the dead at the end of days.”

That is a simple and accurate explanation of the Biblical concept, namely, that “the dead know nothing . . . For there is no action, no reasoning, no learning, no wisdom in Sheol [mankind’s common grave], where you are going.”—Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; Daniel 12:1, 2; Isaiah 26:19.




Job described his hope of a resurrection some time after his death:

"If a man dies, can he live again?
I will wait all the days of my compulsory service
Until my relief comes.
You will call, and I will answer you.
You will long for the work of your hands." (Job 14:14, 15)


Isaiah wrote about the hope of the resurrection:

“Your dead will live.
My corpses will rise up.

Awake and shout joyfully,
You residents in the dust!

For your dew is as the dew of the morning,
And the earth will let those powerless in death come to life." (Isaiah 26:19)



According to the Encyclopaedia Judaica,

In the rabbinic period the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead is considered one of the central doctrines of Judaism” and “is to be distinguished from the belief in . . . the immortality of the soul.”

Today, however, while the immortality of the soul is accepted by all factions of Judaism (while the resurrection of the dead is no longer believed). When was immortality accepted by Judaism?




The Encyclopaedia Judaica says that . . .

 

"Only in the post-biblical period, did a clear and firm belief in the immortality of the soul take hold . . . and become one of the cornerstones of the Jewish and Christian faiths."

 

"The personality was considered as a whole in the biblical period. Thus the soul was not sharply distinguished from the body."

 

The early Jews believed in the resurrection of the dead,
and this "is to be distinguished from the belief in . . . the immortality of the soul."



 

In 332B.C.E., Alexander the Great took much of the Middle East in conquest. His successors continued his plan of Hellenization, imbuing all parts of the empire with Greek language, culture, and philosophy. The blending of the Greek and the Jewish cultures that resulted was inevitable.


 

Early in the 3 B.C.E., the first translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek --the Septuagint-- was begun. Through it many Gentiles came to be familiar with & have respect for the Jewish religion, some even converting. At the same time Jews were becoming conversant with Greek thought, some becoming philosophers, a thing entirely new for them.

 

In the1st century C.E., Philo of Alexandria was one of the earliest Jewish philosophers. He revered Plato and took it upon himself to explain Judaism in terms of Greek philosophy.

 


"By creating a unique synthesis of Platonic philosophy and biblical tradition, Philo paved the way for later Christian [as well as Jewish] thinkers." Philo's belief about the soul was that "death restores the soul to its original, pre-birth state. Since the soul belongs to the spiritual world, life in the body becomes nothing but a brief, often unfortunate, episode." (quotes from: Heaven—A History)


A book that deeply influenced Jewish thought and life is the Talmud—the written summary of the so-called oral law, with later commentaries and explanations of this law, compiled by rabbis from the 2nd century C.E. into the Middle Ages.


 

"The rabbis of the Talmud," says the Encyclopaedia Judaica, "believed in the continued existence of the soul after death."

 

"Probably on account of the influence of Platonism," says the Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics, "[rabbis] believed in the pre-existence of souls."

 


I used also as sources:

God's Word the Bible (NWT; Douay)

"Mankind's Search for God"
- Ch 9: "Judaism---Searching for God Through Scripture & Tradition"
http://www.scribd.com/doc/183321633/...search-for-god

"What Happens to Us When We Die", brochure.

Last edited by 2Q&Lrn&Hlp; 11-30-2014 at 05:55 PM..
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