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Old 01-14-2014, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
2,538 posts, read 4,699,525 times
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Daniel Boyarin, Orthodox Professor of Talmudic Studies at UC Berkley talks about Jesus:

From a review of his book on the blog Interfaithfulness:

"The Incarnation and the Trinity are Jewish Ideas - Boyarin shows how the concepts of incarnation and Trinity so identified with Christianity and viewed as wholly other by most Jews, were actually very Jewish concepts. Boyarin insists that Jesus, when he came, came in a form that many, many Jews were expecting: a second divine figure incarnated as a human. In the late 2nd Temple period until the 4th century and beyond, there was a wide variety of acceptable Jewish expectations about God’s redemptive game plan."

Changing Jewish/Christian Assumptions: Game-Changing Ideas from a Jewish Scholar | Interfaithfulness

There is a lot more on the blog (several independent posts) and many, many quotes from Boyarin's book. It's all pretty fascinating stuff full of historical background, countering what I have heard from many in this forum. Boyarin, although he isn't a Messianic himself, lays the foundation for the idea that messianic Judaism is, not only a genuine expression of traditional Judaism, but also that many of the ideas and philosophies of Messianic Judaism were common historical Jewish ideas. According to the blogger, Boyarin is one of the "greatest talmudists in the world."

Last edited by Ellen Pitts; 01-14-2014 at 12:36 PM..
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Old 01-14-2014, 01:23 PM
 
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One crazy Jew espousing his ideas on Yushke and the connection to Jewish thought does not legitimize the messianic movement.

Pegotty, I think you need to be honest with yourself and us and just admit you're considering becoming a goy. I hope you stay a Jew.
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Old 01-14-2014, 01:33 PM
 
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Ok, I read the article you linked above. It's utter rubbish, and every single point made is from a Xhristian viewpoint. For the Chrstians to prove any points with Jews, they must do it from a Jewish viewpoint. Show me a Jewish text (not some hippy nutbag professor at Berkeley) that legitimizes Jesus for the Jews, and I'm all ears. Bring me Chrstian "proofs," and you've brought me a pile of feces for all it's worth.
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Old 01-14-2014, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Long Island
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I think this is a relevant quote from the blog:

"Let me say that the wrong conclusion to take from this is that “the Christians were right after all.” Boyarin himself is clear that Christianity veered sharply from the path of truth creating a non-Jewish Torah-rejecting Jesus and a kind of Judenrein Christianity and polarized way of thinking and behavior that bore the most bitter fruit and is still with us today. And let us be clear that Boyarin himself does not embrace Yeshua as Messiah, so don’t let anyone reading this blog post go peddling any such idea on the web! "

Boyarin is talking about the ideas and circumstances of very early Christianity, long before it began to take shape into what we know it as today. I think it would be a great mistake to assume that he is talking modern Christianity in any of its forms.

It's a historical fact that the early movement that later became Christianity started out as a Torah-based Jewish movement, and I'm sure Dr. Boyarin has some interesting things to say about it. But that movement was quickly changed by Hellenistic thought and Roman paganism, and soon had nothing to do with Judaism.

Last edited by JB from NC; 01-14-2014 at 01:56 PM..
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Old 01-14-2014, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
(not some hippy nutbag professor at Berkeley)
I now understand why there are so many Jewish comedians. You guys are born that way.

Is having a sense of humor one of the Mitzvas?
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Old 01-14-2014, 02:18 PM
 
864 posts, read 734,840 times
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Quote:
Pegotty, I think you need to be honest with yourself and us and just admit you're considering becoming a goy. I hope you stay a Jew.
Once a Jew, always a Jew. She can never become anything else.
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Old 01-14-2014, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
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It's possible that early Christianity before Paul and the "Gospel of John" was similar to what Chabad-Lubavitch is like today: Jews who greatly revered a dead man as Messiah but did not view him as God. Like Jesus, Menachem Mendel Schneerson made many disciples who would go to great lengths and personal sacrifice to bring Jews closer to their version of Judaism. When he died, his followers refused to believe he could die before fulfilling all of the Messianic prophecies and believed that he would come back at the end of days and fulfill the prophecies. Who knows perhaps we will see a Lubavitcher version of Paul who will spread a Lubavitcher version of the Noahide Laws + some personality cult of Schneerson to all of humanity and we will have Christianity 2.0.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
Once a Jew, always a Jew. She can never become anything else.
Oh wow, I made the exact same comment at the same time as you did, in another thread.
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Old 01-14-2014, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,380 posts, read 24,170,078 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usuario View Post
It's possible that early Christianity before Paul and the "Gospel of John" was similar to what Chabad-Lubavitch is like today: Jews who greatly revered a dead man as Messiah but did not view him as God. Like Jesus, Menachem Mendel Schneerson made many disciples who would go to great lengths and personal sacrifice to bring Jews closer to their version of Judaism. When he died, his followers refused to believe he could die before fulfilling all of the Messianic prophecies and believed that he would come back at the end of days and fulfill the prophecies. Who knows perhaps we will see a Lubavitcher version of Paul who will spread a Lubavitcher version of the Noahide Laws + some personality cult of Schneerson to all of humanity and we will have Christianity 2.0.

What makes the Lubavitch any different than Messianic Jews? They've already chosen a false prophet but still hang his photo nearly everywhere as commonly as Christians hang the photo of JC.
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Old 01-14-2014, 09:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
What makes the Lubavitch any different than Messianic Jews? They've already chosen a false prophet but still hang his photo nearly everywhere as commonly as Christians hang the photo of JC.
As best I can tell, they are different beasts. The Lubavich are more akin to first century Essenes and Ebionites (if you want to say they are similar to Chrstians at all), while the Messianics are hate filled monsters trying to destroy the Jewish people from the inside. Not a fair comparison at all.
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Old 01-14-2014, 09:31 PM
 
Location: OC/LA
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But you would agree they are both idol worshipers, lost their Jewish souls, and have no place in Olam Habah, right?
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